On hazing

[James]

I think that there is a major problem that is poisoning discussion.

The first and most important thing is that hazing has become a buzzword. ITs a word that has a lot of vague and negative connotations as well as a lot of knee-jerk reactions.

Which means, its hard to talk about it. Hazing is wrong. Ok we got it. Most of us agre with it.

We bog down on whether we consider individual actions or scenarios to be hazing.

It might help us to give examples during discussion.

So for example lol, it is considered hazing to require pledges or NM to memorize/learn your history, symbols, poems, songs, and ideals.

When I am reading this post I am simply amazed by the sorority women that are posting in denounciation of hazing while they are in full knowledge that their chapters haze. Thats not even mentioning required library hours, or meeting times.

How can you ladies reconcile your rampant hazing of NM with the rhetoric you post on here?

Originally posted by adpiucf
Perhaps a Louisiana girl would be impressed. But I live in Los Angeles.

Fraternities and sororities are elitist organizations, the purpose of which is peer to peer socialization. Why spend time and money recruiting quality members, only to beat them down and belittle them, operating under the belief that this abuse will make them life-loyal members?

Jump into the fray, if you must, as people will continue to support hazing. It is illegal by every ethics code at colleges and universities, and in many states, it has been declared illegal. Every NIC and NPC has set forth policies supporting these anti-hazing laws. Why jeopardize the parent organization and the memberships of every brother/sister in the sole interests of having a pledge push M&Ms down the street with his nose? Hazing is selfish, and anyone who participates in hazing has no care or concern for his GLO.

[33girl]

rock on James.

also, as far as the 2 guys here who are getting their isht jumped on for saying "yeah, we haze", they haven't said what they do. It could be the same as Beavis and Butt-Head saying they got some when all they did was accidentally touch a girl's butt. The more upset you get about a word - and that's all it is, a word - the cooler you make them feel.

[Lil' Hannah]

yes James, study hours, tests, being made to wear a pledge pin can all be construed as hazing. But if you go back and read the first post of this thread, you'll see that the discussion was not about tests. I know that cashmoney said he was hazed like that by lifeguards, but physical and psychological hazing from GLOs is what the topic quickly meandered to. And then most of the fraternity men quickly supported such hazing. I understand what you're saying though, a lot of us are taking the stance of "we do things that are considered hazing, but they're not bad. you're bad because you do things that are considered hazing that are bad."

I guess there's really no easy answer. A chapter will most likely not get their charter revoked for having study hours, however I'm pretty sure if the university or GLO headquarters found out about being forced to smoke a pound of weed and drink a bottle of vodka for 4 days straight with no food, that charter would be pulled faster than you could say "lawsuit."

[cashmoney]

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
however I'm pretty sure if the university or GLO headquarters found out about being forced to smoke a pound of weed and drink a bottle of vodka for 4 days straight with no food, that charter would be pulled faster than you could say "lawsuit."

I drank the bottle of Vodka in 24 hours, it was the weed that took me 4 days.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by 33girl
rock on James.

also, as far as the 2 guys here who are getting their isht jumped on for saying "yeah, we haze", they haven't said what they do. It could be the same as Beavis and Butt-Head saying they got some when all they did was accidentally touch a girl's butt. The more upset you get about a word - and that's all it is, a word - the cooler you make them feel.

It really is just a word. Unfortunatley its' definition varries so widely, due to non-specific rules and laws, that it is really hard to argue.

So, in the end, things that are important -- learning history, interviews, etc. -- become hazing due to the stupidity of people who won't take the time to really identify the real problems and attack them head on.

The bottom line still is that hazing is illegal, though.

[33girl]

This is starting to sound like Alice in Wonderland - "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean."

That's the problem I have with people using hot-button words/phrases like hazing, binge drinking, date rape, racism, add your own. Everyone has a different definition and is convinced theirs is the right one.

[emb021]

Originally posted by 33girl
This is starting to sound like Alice in Wonderland - "When I use a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean."

That's the problem I have with people using hot-button words/phrases like hazing, binge drinking, date rape, racism, add your own. Everyone has a different definition and is convinced theirs is the right one.

Starting to sound???

That's been pretty much the problem with this whole general topic.

There is a body of activities that most people accept as hazing. Most organizations have quantified these in their policies.

But it seems that many people/orgs seem to have gone too far in including a lot of activities as 'hazing'. Its what constitues this 'gray area' that seems to generate the most discussion.

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by James

So for example lol, it is considered hazing to require pledges or NM to memorize/learn your history, symbols, poems, songs, and ideals.

When I am reading this post I am simply amazed by the sorority women that are posting in denounciation of hazing while they are in full knowledge that their chapters haze. Thats not even mentioning required library hours, or meeting times.

How can you ladies reconcile your rampant hazing of NM with the rhetoric you post on here? [/B]

James, by state law, university policy, NPC code and individual sororities within NPC, hazing is not allowed. Sorority HQ's have a hierarchy in place to ensure that each chapter is functioning with accordance to the sorority policies, and even send out leadership consultants a couple times a year to ensure that these policies are being followed.

However, sometimes, chapters slip through the cracks and support hazing activities, unbenownst to the national group. Why? These chapters lack strong leadership and understanding of the values of their parent group. Many times, it is also due to a lack of alumnae advisers and alumnae support. Mostly, it is a lack of consistency of those three core principles: mature leadership, alumnae advisory support and understanding of the org's values & vision.

You know that saying, "It's all fun and games until someone pokes an eye out?" Quite literally, this is when the whistle blows-- when someone gets hurt, recognizes the problem, complains, etc. We've all read "Lord of the Flies." As much as young adults wish to be treated as and act as adults, many students of college age are learning life skills, time management, ethics and leadership for the first time. They will make errors and learn from those mistakes; they will try out new ideas and be elated at their successes. Greek leadership is an excellent training ground for learning how to be mature, work with people, take direction and criticism, etc. Without an advisory hand to guide them, however, these young leaders can unintentionally take the name of their national group and turn their local chapter into its own operation; and over time, the national policies and values deteriorate until the chapter is hardly recognizable as a member of the national group, except for the letters they wear.

It is not considered hazing to have the entire chapter participate in activities equally, including events for learning chapter songs, policies and history. In Alpha Delta Pi, for example, the new member period consists of 4-6 weeks, during which time new members meet for 30 minute pre-scheduled education meetings where they learn about the sorority and Greek life, according to lesson plans that have been approved by the sorority chapter executive board and the regional alumnae directors. These lessons culminate in a final "exam" that every member must take each year she is actively involved as a collegiate member. All members are on study hours, and members with less-than-the-required GPA are carefully monitored. The first priority of a collegiate Greek is her school work. If she is not making grades, the sorority is not helping her achieve her longterm goals.

It becomes hazing when those education sessions are sprung on the new members without warning, or at 2 AM, forced to line up and recite things, etc. It becomes hazing when the new members are the ones who are being taken advantage of, or are treated as though they are inferior to the initiated members. A new member is still a member, and is not supposed to be having to prove herself worthy of membership-- that is what recruitment week and bid matching are for. The new member period is rather like a 90-day trial period at most workplaces where both employee and employer/team can assess the relationship once the person is hired, and give that new person an opportunity to become acclimated to the company's functions and policies and learn their job well. The same is true of the new member period-- if at the end of the new member education, it is not really for them, or they have broken every sorority policy in the book, it is time for them to consider the value of their membership in that org, and for the org to consider keeping this member "employed" (for lack of a better term) and representing the org.

Hazing is any activity that separates one group of members from another group of members that is not outlined in the approved new member education plans. Using common sense and maturity, something that chapters do have a tendancy to lack when there is little alumnae presence, hazing can become a non-issue. If a person feels hazing made her a stronger, life-loyal member, that is your idea and your decision. But it is not a policy supported by institutions of higher learning, most of the states in the US, nor the national/international sororities and fraternities. You are welcome to your opinion, but it is a disconnect to the teachings of your parent org and your university.

[33girl]

You completely missed James' point.

Originally posted by adpiucf
Hazing is any activity that separates one group of members from another group of members that is not outlined in the approved new member education plans.

I've never seen it stated that way...people say that ANYTHING that separates the pledges and actives is hazing. Think of it in geometry proof form.

A. Hazing = anything that separates NMs and sisters - given

B. NMs are required to learn history etc etc - given

C. NMs have separate meetings to learn history - given

D. Making NMs learn history is hazing - substitution

As I mentioned before, we (briefly) had a NM who pointed out that the anti-hazing workshop was hazing. According to this definition, she was right. It was mandatory, and actives didn't have to attend it.

We'll never come to a solution with this until everyone sits down and SPELLS OUT what is and what isn't, and WHY it is hazing. The FIPG definitiion and most groups' definitions right now have far too much "wiggle room."

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by 33girl
We'll never come to a solution with this until everyone sits down and SPELLS OUT what is and what isn't, and WHY it is hazing. The FIPG definitiion and most groups' definitions right now have far too much "wiggle room."

Exactly.

Unfortunately, then we'll have to convince all of the state legislatures to change their equally undefined laws.

[Monique]

I am sitting here reading some of these post...It amazes me how different GLO's and BGLO's are...I mean it's like WOW Thats all i have to say.
ps some of u made some good points...others , well i didn't understand..But 2 each his own

[Kevin]

Originally posted by 33girl

We'll never come to a solution with this until everyone sits down and SPELLS OUT what is and what isn't, and WHY it is hazing. The FIPG definitiion and most groups' definitions right now have far too much "wiggle room."

Perhaps this is by design?

There are too many people out there who constantly comb through their respective HQs' policies for loopholes. If you concretely define what hazing is, you'll without doubt end up with things that probably should be called hazing that definitely aren't.

Your best bet is when in doubt to consult with your HQ and campus advisors.

[33girl]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Perhaps this is by design?

There are too many people out there who constantly comb through their respective HQs' policies for loopholes. If you concretely define what hazing is, you'll without doubt end up with things that probably should be called hazing that definitely aren't.

Your best bet is when in doubt to consult with your HQ and campus advisors.

But that's exactly what I mean...spell it out to the nth degree. If that means listing every possible thing and ending up with a constitution the size of a book, so be it. It's better than eternally asking what the definition of "is" is.

[hoosier]

Maybe this has been posted here before, but unless you would be willing to have it on the front page of Sunday's newspaper, it's probably hazing and should not be done.

[GreekGirl22]

i don't get it. why the hell should there be hazing? i mean, does sodomizing (sp?) a rush really make them respect you and want to be your "brother" or "sister"? it just seems really screwed. i've never been or taken part in hazing. I see the point of the tradition thing, but it seems like the tradition is getting more twisted and violent as each year goes by. and now it's happening to 15-16 year olds? that's just sick.