University fo Okahoma-Sigma Alpha Epsilon-Racial Chant

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Generally at OU, the GLOs own their own homes. SAE was different in that they leased that property from the school. In fact, the previous time they were thrown off of campus, the SAE house was used for administrative offices.

The SAE alumni have retained Stephen Jones, who is a "high profile" attorney who generally represents right-wing causes. They have a decent 1st Amendment claim--one that I'd personally like to see brought to federal court to possibly make some precedent. It would be nice to know the limits of power of public schools to punish conduct or speech they deem offensive.

There's probably a really solid suit for violations of the landlord-tenant act, what with OU summarily booting SAE from their rental property.

I think they have a good free speech claim, and the men who were evicted but not on the bus have a good freedom of association claim, as well. They were summarily ordered to move out of their housing because they associate with racists. They probably also have a good due process claim -- even if the University was within its rights to boot them, they were entitled to notice and a hearing before ordered to move out of the house. The men who were expelled may also have a due process claim, if they did not have notice and hearing before being expelled.

I love the idea of landlord/tenant claims.

Oklahoma administration has handled this VERY badly. Those men were racists assholes, but they have a legal right to be racist assholes. There's not much a state university should do about it. If they had let SAE pull their charter and then went through the correct process to have the men move out of the leased premises, it would be different.

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by banditone

Not talking about the withdraw of SAE. That can be done easily and without a trial / hearing / whatever - I agree. What I'm talking about is kicking the two guys out of school with no trial.

Technically only one got kicked out (Pettit) - Rice withdrew voluntarily.

Remember we are all speculating, as I stated earlier, and MysticCat reminded me. We've not seen the OU/SAE landlord-tenant agreement, for example. Again, it's going to be very interesting to watch this play out.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

And courts have upheld the rights of universities to limit speech.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

And courts have upheld the rights of universities to limit speech.

If it is targeting an individual, true. But most of these speech and conduct codes violate the hell out of the First Amendment. Hate speech is protected and schools are going to lose cases like these almost every time.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Oklahoma administration has handled this VERY badly. Those men were racists assholes, but they have a legal right to be racist assholes. There's not much a state university should do about it. If they had let SAE pull their charter and then went through the correct process to have the men move out of the leased premises, it would be different.

Is housing an OU administration issue? I thought SAE HQ pulled the charter prior to the OU administration saying that the members would be "kicked out" of the house.

Regardless, HQs close chapters for "just cause" (sometimes over "free speach" isses) and all members are required to move out of the house asap based on the GLO's policies. So unless each member has a housing lease directly with the university, and not the chapter's housing corporation, how is this any different?

(Note, I'm not a lawyer which is why I'm asking.)

[als463]

I don't agree with what happened at all but, I wonder how far is "too far" when talking about this situation. These young adults who made really stupid choices have now had their phone numbers and addresses posted. Their names are all out there for the world to see and they have been told to leave their fraternity and university. Stupid decision on their part? Sure. Should they be unemployable and not be able to get an education over their stupidity? I'm not sure. I get that they can go to other universities but, what school would want to take on a PR risk like that?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by als463

Should they be unemployable and not be able to get an education over their stupidity?

Yes.

The only way the answer to this question would be anything but yes is if they were 5 or under.

[als463]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yes.

The only way the answer to this question would be anything but yes is if they were 5 or under.

I'm sorry but, I disagree that their lives should be ruined forever. I won't make excuses and call them boys when they are men but, I think it's a bit over the top to say singing a hateful chant should result in never finishing school or finding sound employment.

[Nanners52674]

Originally Posted by als463

I'm sorry but, I disagree that their lives should be ruined forever. I won't make excuses and call them boys when they are men but, I think it's a bit over the top to say singing a hateful chant should result in never finishing school or finding sound employment.

It's a reality in today's world though. What you put on the Internet is out there forever. Does it suck when someone learns this the hard way? Yes. But honestly we need to find a way to get young adults to care about their online image. We tell that to PNMS all the time. Watch what you post, scrub your social media etc... And as for my personal thoughts, fuck these boys they deserve what they get.

[*winter*]

Why shouldn't it follow them? Would you want to be their coworker? Is it fair to subject a black person to that? They mentioned lynching!

THey brought it upon themselves, bottom line. So smug, so sure they're just going to coast through life and never have consequences.

[33girl]

Exactly. These aren't the cast of the first Real World who can't believe how much it blew up. These are young men who have grown up with the Internet always in their lives. They're not just racists, they're egregiously stupid racists. I'm betting (sorry to say) there are far more people out there who would refuse to hire them or admit them to school because they're dumb and indiscreet, rather than because of their racial views.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by als463

I'm sorry but, I disagree that their lives should be ruined forever. I won't make excuses and call them boys when they are men but, I think it's a bit over the top to say singing a hateful chant should result in never finishing school or finding sound employment.

Let's be honest, there are plenty of people out there to whom these guys just became great candidates for employment.

[SAEalumnus]

SAE's national president has a bit of a history of knee-jerk reactions. The fact that the charter was yanked within hours of the video being posted has everything to do with that. The OU chapter has a right to appeal to the Fraternity Convention, which ironically happens this summer in the national president's home town. Having said that, from the social media posts I saw, there were plenty of actives and alumni who would be only too happy to line up for a chance to put foot to ass over at OU. The conduct on that video and that the chant was clearly an established 'thing' for that chapter are diametrically opposed to what our Fraternity stands for. Anyone who was chanting, laughing along, or otherwise supportive of that behavior should absolutely be expelled.

Whatever local victory the undergrads (and possibly their alumni) manage to get, if any at all, it will be moot unless the Convention can be convinced to restore their charter. In my opinion, without the university's support, their charter will never again see the light of day.

[als463]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Let's be honest, there are plenty of people out there to whom these guys just became great candidates for employment.

Like who? Please elaborate.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by als463

Like who? Please elaborate.

There are plenty of racist people in positions to hire.