Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[shinerbock]

On my campus at least, we havent seen much of the "getting into trouble" type. Fraternities that get in trouble and stay on campus, generally are more careful, but do revert to old practices. The "No-Hazing" type fraternities are generally one of the following, in my experience.

1) New on campus, like you said. Often they are fraternities which although big nationwide, are thought poorly of at the big southern schools. I won't name names, but you can ask me in PM if you actually wanna know. They generally have a tough time competing with the other fraternities, and thus use the no hazing policy to attract rushees. Unfortunately for them, the kids they attract generally couldnt go elsewhere, and so 5-10 years later, they're in the same position.

2) A fraternity that has been around for a while, but has a strict national policy or is a struggling fraternity. To clarify, most of the big fraternities on campus are paid no attention to by HQ. They often use them as examples for operations, but rarely pay attention to what else is going on, probably out of the desire to not know. Those chapters whose HQ do pay close attention, however, are often forced to implement such things, or risk losing money, insurance, etc. There are only a couple on campus like this that I can think of. The other type is a struggling fraternity who like a new fraternity, is looking to move up. Unfortunately, the practice of being a strict no hazing fraternity generally attracts the wrong people, and thus their efforts are self defeating.

[Tom Earp]

Something to think about!

Subject: Doing time in AZ


Sheriff Joe Arpaio (in Arizona ) who created the "tent city jail":
>
> He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates
for them.
>
> He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails. Took away their
weights. Cut off all but "G" movies.
>
> He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free work on county
and city projects.
>
> Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for
discrimination.
>
> He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court
order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV
again only let in the Disney channel and the weather channel.
>
> When asked why the weather channel he replied, so they wil! l know
how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.
>
> He cut off coffee since it has zero nutritional value.
>
> When the inmates complained, he told them, "This isn't the
Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."
>
> He bought Newt Gingrich lecture series on videotape that he pipes
into the jails.
>
> When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat,
he replied that a democratic lecture series might explain why a lot of
the inmates were in his jails in the first place.
>
>
>
> More on the Arizona Sheriff:
>
> With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116
degrees just set a new record), the Associated Press reports: About
2,000 inmates living in a barbed-wire-surrounded tent encampment at the
Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their
government-issued pink boxer shorts.
>
> ! On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were either curled up
on their bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached 138 degrees
inside the week before.
>
> Many were also swathed in wet, pink towels as sweat collected on
their chests and dripped down to their pink socks.
>
> "It feels like we are in a furnace," said James Zanzot, an inmate who
has lived in the tents for 1 year. "It's inhumane."
>
> Joe Arpaio, the tough-guy sheriff who created the tent city and long
ago started making his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches,
is not one bit sympathetic He said Wednesday that he told all of the
inmates: "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents
too, and they have to wear full battle gear, but they didn't commit any
crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"
>
> Way to go, Sheriff! Maybe if all prisons were like this one there
would be a lot less crime and/or repeat offenders. Criminals should be
punished for their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for their
parole, only to go out and commit another crime so they can get back in
to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things taxpayers can't afford to
have for themselves.
>


Well, while it doesnt seem to seem anything to say, if you do the crime, then you do the time!

[shinerbock]

Not sure thats relevant, but good post Tom. Glad to see there are people on this site who feel everybody in society does not have the right to be coddled and encouraged.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Not sure thats relevant, but good post Tom. Glad to see there are people on this site who feel everybody in society does not have the right to be coddled and encouraged.

Thank You, but is this not true as We have been discussing?

Dont do the crime as it were, dont do the crime!

Stupid is as Stupid does?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Thank You, but is this not true as We have been discussing?

Dont do the crime as it were, dont do the crime!

Stupid is as Stupid does?

Tom, i have no idea what this means.

[Elephant Walk]

Of course, it's not always the case. I don't have much insight, but our Arkansas chapter just recolonized. Their alums built them a multi-million dollar house with an excellent location while they were still a colony.

The house isn't built yet. It's going to run them about 5.4 million dollars, since Don Tyson (SN alumn) gave them 1.7 mill. It is in a great location, HOWEVER it was not built while they were a colony. It is being built as we speak, and will be livable at the start of next year.

As shiner said, new row fraternities are often thought poorly of. Usually nationally if a fraternity is founded after 1900, it is not looked well upon, but there are exceptions (lambda chi, LSU...).

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

The house isn't built yet. It's going to run them about 5.4 million dollars, since Don Tyson (SN alumn) gave them 1.7 mill. It is in a great location, HOWEVER it was not built while they were a colony. It is being built as we speak, and will be livable at the start of next year.

As shiner said, new row fraternities are often thought poorly of. Usually nationally if a fraternity is founded after 1900, it is not looked well upon, but there are exceptions (lambda chi, LSU...).

Thanks for the correction -- that's going to be a nice house. 5.4 million will get you a pretty nice place in Fayetville.

[agzg]

5.4 million dollars - !

My house is super old on campus - it was formerly the house for the Perishing Rifle Club or whatever, and it's only like $300,000 - TOPS. Of course, a house that holds nine for a group of 40 women works out well enough for all of us - none of the chapters on my campus have houses that are that huge!

[shinerbock]

Well I mean, when you build a house to handle 100 people, with 30-50 in house, it gets up there. Especially when you make it southern mansion style...

And I don't think that house was close to 5 million (of course property in Auburn is like 10 cents from the university)

[Elephant Walk]

I believe the Sigma Nu house was built to house a hundred, I think the article said that there would be 53 some suites, and at 2 people a suite, around 106 people. It's definitely not the biggest house on campus, but it'll be around that way. One of the smaller fraternities on campus was told that if it made 1 million in alumn donations, the university would give it 4 mill. Not bad.

[KyleMcGuire1983]

"purposeful hazing" now THIS I have to hear about.

I still can't see how eating behind toilets rocks. Are you teaching them to lay in the bed they made? It should be so clean they can eat off of it? Are the backs of toilets supposed to be spitshine clean? Is it normal to be able to eat off a toilet?

I can't think of a single normal person whose toilets are that clean.

Doing line ups seems to make more sense than that! Seriously.

All I know is that if one of my three founders caught some seniors making freshmen "rats" eat off a toilet they'd challenge the bullies to an honor fight.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well I mean, when you build a house to handle 100 people, with 30-50 in house, it gets up there. Especially when you make it southern mansion style...

"Southern Mansion" style? Do we have any architecture students here? My guess is that this style may have a somewhat more formal name -- like Georgian or Federalist.

I have this vision of sometime 20 to 30 years or so into the future with Shinerbock, Bows and Toes, Macallam and a few others sitting on the porch under the Greek columns, sipping Bourbon and Branch Water, talking about how great the Fraternity system used to be before it died due to hazing and alcohol lawsuits that finally sent all of the organizations into bankrupcy because of all the legal actions and chapter closings.

"Ah, those were the good old days."

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

We don't need to change the greek system. Plenty of great people went through the old system.

That argument doesn't work. Just because someone was great and also participated in an event that had nothing to do with his/her greatness, that doesn't mean the event he/she participated in was great, or even acceptable.

For instance:
We didn't need to abolish slavery. Plenty of great people had slaves.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Do I think smart and purposeful hazing creates a quality and strong brotherhood? Yes.

Just out of curiosity, shiner, what do you consider the tie that binds you to your brothers? You mentioned in another thread that you might not call someone from another chapter your brother. So, I'm wondering if your chapter has made the pledging process the tie that binds its members to one another.

I would hope it would be your rituals that unite the brothers. You've complained about how your HQ has changed your ritual, so at least we know you perform your ritual (or something). Not trying to be rude, but maybe you (as in your chapter) should do a ritual workshop or something. Get all the guys together and analyze what your founders valued. I would be willing to bet that their values were incorporated into the ritual. And, in their eyes, THAT (and not hazing) is what should create a quality and strong brotherhood.

[Elephant Walk]

For instance:
We didn't need to abolish slavery. Plenty of great people had slaves.

There's a lot of logical fallacies in comparing this statement with shinerbocks.

I would be willing to bet that their values were incorporated into the ritual. And, in their eyes, THAT (and not hazing) is what should create a quality and strong brotherhood.

Whose eyes? Learn how to write. Jesus Christ. We are southern gentleman, we are born knowing the values. Learning values from ritual to create brotherhood is not going to work. Furthermore, why would we teach pledges ritual? They're pledges! We are talking about building brotherhood by hazing before they become members. I'm not sure how your organization works, but they don't learn ritual until they become members.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

We are southern gentleman, we are born knowing the values. Learning values from ritual to create brotherhood is not going to work. Furthermore, why would we teach pledges ritual? They're pledges! We are talking about building brotherhood by hazing before they become members. I'm not sure how your organization works, but they don't learn ritual until they become members.

I don't care if you're from the South, North, East or West, the only things you are "born" knowing is how to cry, eat and poop. In all seriousness, I don't think Sydney was advocating teaching pledges ritual AT ALL - rather saying that your chapter (the brothers only) should look at the values contained in your ritual and treat your pledges according to those values.