Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[agzg]

Zeta Beta Tau is a men's chapter that does not haze, nor does it pledge. www.zetabetatau.org

You can read their anti-hazing policy. They are ahead of the curve. There are also other fraternities (yes, for men, I'm not talking women's fraternities like mine here) that have either completely stopped hazing, such as Kyle's chapter of Sigma Nu, or are working to stop it.

Don't play the woman card with me. I was hazed too. It didn't foster unity, it didn't build me into a stronger woman, it made me literally hate the women that hazed the worst in my chapter. I'm not saying dislike, I'm saying hate, and for a reason.

Women haze sometimes just as badly as men, and sometimes in more disgusting ways. I'm too new to have had this done to me, but I know women that have had to wear feminine products around campus. With materials on them so as to make them look like they are not clean. You wanna talk humiliation?

Men and women can both be just as cruel to one another. Another form of "female" hazing is the feeding of the rumor mill. It can seriously adversely affect a new member.

[shinerbock]

I have no doubts that there are fraternities who don't have pledging or hazing. So what? I would have absolutely no desire to join an organization like that. Sigma Nu is one of the best fraternities on my campus, but they surely wouldnt be if they were an anti-hazing chapter as you mentioned

I'm fully aware females haze too, not my point. My point was that men feel the need to earn their way into an organization (at least down here, obviously not at places like Kyles chapter).

The instance of female hazing you mentioned sounds like the only point was to shame the new members. We don't do anything to shame people. Once again, everything has a purpose.

[Drolefille]

shiner, I would agree with you that it appears that guys and girls haze for different reasons and with different motivations. The big problem is when either goes too far and people get hurt/killed.

HQs, universities, and states have responded by shutting the whole system down (or trying to). There's got to be a better response than overreaction, but what will make members know how serious they are about "dangerous" hazing without preventing the "team-building" stuff?

[shinerbock]

yeah I'm not sure either. Perhaps fraternities should come with some sort of waiver. Not that you should be able to do anything to pledges, but seeing as they CHOOSE to pledge a fraternity, they should also have the responsibility of leaving if they decide they need to. If you're old enough to enter a group, you should also be old enough to leave on your own accord. I think a problem arises in that the national HQ's are pushing no hazing so hard, almost to the point of no pledgeship, and incoming students therefore have an expectation. Back in the day when hazing was more accepted, students knew what they were getting into. When we rush kids, we let them know that is isn't all hand holding, that it is tough. For the most part that has kept us from having any problem with students who thought it was gonna be a walkthrough.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sigma Nu is one of the best fraternities on my campus, but they surely wouldnt be if they were an anti-hazing chapter as you mentioned.

That's an amazing statement.

You just accused a chapter of hazing, and said they couldn't be any good if they didn't. Do you know that for sure? How?

There's no way you can really know that, unless you've gone through the pledge process in Sigma Nu.

Simply because a chapter that doesn't haze is different from what you are familiar with, you're saying they can't be any good.

Unbelievable.

[Drolefille]

To be fair, some fraternities that preach "no hazing" turn around and haze. At least let your pledges know what they're getting into. I knew the pledges on campus who were trained to say "we don't haze" and I get why BUT if that's the line to the guys you're bidding, I say false advertising.

Have you ever had to pull fellow upperclassmen back from going to far?

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To be fair, some fraternities that preach "no hazing" turn around and haze.

That is a fair statement.

I wonder how it squares with their Ritual, Constitution/Bylaws and/or their founders values.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

That is a fair statement.

I wonder how it squares with their Ritual, Constitution/Bylaws and/or their founders values.

My guess is that those doing the hazing don't really care.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

My guess is that those doing the hazing don't really care.

Yep. They also don't care about those who would hope to follow them since they're gambling with their charter.

[shinerbock]

Delt, its not that unbelievable. My point wasn't that Sigma Nu couldnt be a good fraternity without hazing (although I think hazing does help), but rather that they wouldnt be a good fraternity if they were one of the "Absolutely no hazing" chapters. There is a difference between fraternities who don't really haze much, and those who make it the focal point of their rush process. Now the following is a generalization, but I've also witnessed it to be true on several campuses...The fraternities who base their entire pledge program on no-hazing, generally attract the weakest candidates (here in the south). The guys we look for, as I've said before, are those who know something about fraternities and how we operate. Southern guys from good families usually know about rush and pledging and hazing, and therefore know that it isn't as bad as certain people and the media portray. Thus, they generally go to the top or middle tier fraternities, who usually do some sort of hazing. The kids who are attracted to the no-hazing fraternities are often unfamiliar with fraternities, from outside the south, and their family has no tradition of going greek. Thus, they are seeking more of a "greekchat," if you will, type of fraternity. They would rather be made brothers immediately, and have no desire to go through the journey that is pledging in the south. The no-hazing thing, in my experience, has often been used by struggling chapters to attract numbers. So what I'm saying is that among major southern universities, the chapters which loudly proclaim that they don't haze, are generally attracting people we don't want, and are generally having a tough time to start with.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Sigma Nu is one of the best fraternities on my campus, but they surely wouldnt be if they were an anti-hazing chapter as you mentioned.

So, what does that mean, then?

[shinerbock]

Meaning if they were one of those who loudly protested hazing, they probably wouldnt be the fraternity they are today. Now, if they suddenly just stopped hazing, but werent one of the outspoken chapters who focus on it, they would probably be pretty good for at least a while. I think at some point a complete ban on hazing (meaning what HQ considers hazing) would eventually weaken the quality of their membership. Also please note, I don't know what Sigma Nu does in pledgeship. I know that most fraternities on my campus do what those on here would call "hazing." I don't know of any fraternity who does the sort of hazing that leads to death, however. I am also aware of the fraternities on our campus who make no-hazing a selling point, and they generally are not considered to be good fraternities.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I have no doubts that there are fraternities who don't have pledging or hazing. So what? I would have absolutely no desire to join an organization like that. Sigma Nu is one of the best fraternities on my campus, but they surely wouldnt be if they were an anti-hazing chapter as you mentioned.

I'm not sure where in the process they are, but I hung out with a bunch of Auburn Sigma Nus at our national convention in '04. There were a lot of them there to support/lobby for a measure that would have lessened the number of men who would be qualified to be legacies. At any rate, I do get the feeling that they are a more traditional chapter in terms of intake. However, they were a Rock Chapter this year -- that means in the top 8 nationally (my chapter was an honorable mention after only existing for 4 years, but I digress).

To win the Rock Chapter award, they must have been participating in our national programming. I know for a fact that our Oklahoma State chapter has adopted the national programming, and they're top 8 as well.

At any rate, hazing has nothing to do with success. My chapter had the advantage of being able to start from scratch. In the 4 years since we got our charter, we're really on the cusp of being competitive on the same level as Oklahoma State or Auburn, and we don't haze at all. I know for a fact that one other organization hazes (my younger brother is a member), and I have strong suspicions as to the rest of the chapters on that campus. If Sigma Nu at my alma mater is able to be that different, and still get the best grades, be a dominant force in student government, compete strongly in greek week, and excel in intermurals without hazing, I tend to think that it can be done anywhere.

The South is a very traditional place, and Oklahoma tends to be a strange hybrid of northern/southern lifestyle. I think that you'd agree shinerbock that tradition is something that you can't just change overnight at southern schools. That said, I think that we have a definite movement away from hazing, and in the South, though that movement is lagging behind other places, we're still moving away.

[shinerbock]

I agree with you in part. But I think it will be a while before traditional southern chapters completely move away from "hazing"(never, I hope). Once again, when I say hazing, I mean making it a challenge for pledges to become members. This is not the CNN beating and force-drinking hazing. Sigma Nu at Auburn is a very good chapter, and I have heard from people (and I've seen this as well), that legacies may be hurting them. Don't get me wrong, legacies are most often a plus, but when you have tons of them coming through, you're bound to get some ones you'd rather not have. Do I think hazing creates good chapters? No. Do I think smart and purposeful hazing creates a quality and strong brotherhood? Yes. I do still think there is a correlation between strict anti-hazing chapters and being bottom tier, at least here in the south.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I agree with you in part. But I think it will be a while before traditional southern chapters completely move away from "hazing"(never, I hope).

It's happening though -- or at least, it's being changed into something we might not be afraid to invite a High Council member to watch. Our Oklahoma State chapter, for example has made some pretty huge changes in the last few years. They're certainly top tier on that campus (and they'd probably be top tier anywhere else). I'm not sure to what extent they've changed, but they really have. Their alums rewarded them with 2.5 million in money for rennovations, so everything's working out nicely.

Once again, when I say hazing, I mean making it a challenge for pledges to become members. This is not the CNN beating and force-drinking hazing.

This is part of the problem with our aversion to hazing. We lump all of these activities together. While I may disagree with you in terms of the utility of things like lineups, and pledge challenges, I think we'd both agree that those types of things have no business being lumped together with what we see on CNN as you say. I think we can all agree that type of activity simply should not happen, and I think we'd all agree that whoever does participate in activities like that should be shut down.

Sigma Nu at Auburn is a very good chapter, and I have heard from people (and I've seen this as well), that legacies may be hurting them. Don't get me wrong, legacies are most often a plus, but when you have tons of them coming through, you're bound to get some ones you'd rather not have.

Actually, I think we've changed up our legacy policy. Those guys were right. I understand why the legacy system is in place, but I really think it should be up to the chapter as to whether or not to implement it. Some chapters need help getting good guys, others need help keeping bad guys out. National policy's number one objective should be to stay out of the way of local chapters unless what they're doing is directly beneficial to the local chapters.

-- and if we want to continue that discussion, we can do it in Chapter Operations

Do I think hazing creates good chapters? No. Do I think smart and purposeful hazing creates a quality and strong brotherhood? Yes. I do still think there is a correlation between strict anti-hazing chapters and being bottom tier, at least here in the south.

Correlation does not equal causation though. Let's look at why most of those chapters are strict anti-hazing in the first place.

First, we can assume either one of two things -- both of which are bad in the South:

1) It's a new chapter; or
2) The chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, is on probation from their national, etc.

If we can agree that these types of chapters with a few exceptions are principally one of the above two types, I think we can see why they're at a disadvantage in the first place.

The new chapter doesn't have the advantage of tradition. In the South, I think this is a huge disadvantage. Guys are looking for established houses with active alumni networks. Given the choice between houses that have this and houses that don't, I think that it's obvious what type of group most would choose to belong to.

If the chapter has been in trouble, is a recolonization, etc. this is self-explanatory. Of course, it's not always the case. I don't have much insight, but our Arkansas chapter just recolonized. Their alums built them a multi-million dollar house with an excellent location while they were still a colony. I imagine that they're also a strong anti-hazing chapter since these guys probably have no exposure to anything but what our HQ has given them in terms of national programming, but I understand there are exceptions to every rule. It'll be interesting to see if we can repeat this feat in the South as we're recolonizing at Vandy this year.