Mrs. Sheehan speaks

[DeltAlum]

In my generation it was, "America, love it or leave it."

I didn't like the conotation then, either.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
That's not substantiated, and not the same thing as having ICBMs. North Korea does not have ICBMs, and probably never will.

Okey, where's your source of information?

I ask because how do you explain joint military exercises by the Chinese and the Russians with the intent to purchase Su-22M's and Tu-22M's near the Chinese Russian border???

Yeah, far from N. Korea... But how far can a missile really go? The Russians or some former Soviet Republic DOES have ICBM's that DO move around quite rapidly aimed at various locations in the US... And do you think those computerized tracking plans have changed?

And given the fact that Clinton was thinking about taking out NORAD...

I've given you my source...

Either way, we've gotta a problem... We still have nuclear tipped warheads from some lunatic fringe groups/countries that are aiming toward the US... And detente is NOT working in these folks minds...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by amanda6035
If you are SO upset with the way a country is being run, WHY DO YOU SATY?

'Cuz I's PO!!!

I cain't git no wheres, cain't goes no wheres and cain't bees no wheres...

I ain't GOT NO KINNA J-O-B...

I feel institutionalized and I'm on the street...

And the revolution will not be televised...

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
And the revolution will not be televised...

Lol were you watching Girlfriends today?

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Our military is disgracefully underpaid, but that's my pet rant and is really off topic.

NCOs and lower-grade officers are disgracefully underpaid, especially if they're stationed in or around metropolitan areas. But, I know from personal experience that higher-grade officers (Captain and above in the Navy, Colonel and above in the Army and Air Force) are very well compensated--especially when one considers the housing allowance, free health care, and retirement after 20 years. It's next to impossible to get that in the private sector with the same level of education.

I think wanting decent compensation (ie, a living wage) for airmen and privates is a huge part for me in supporting the military while not being a huge fan of the war. But yes...this is another topic entirely.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Okey, where's your source of information?

I ask because how do you explain joint military exercises by the Chinese and the Russians with the intent to purchase Su-22M's and Tu-22M's near the Chinese Russian border???

Yeah, far from N. Korea... But how far can a missile really go? The Russians or some former Soviet Republic DOES have ICBM's that DO move around quite rapidly aimed at various locations in the US... And do you think those computerized tracking plans have changed?

And given the fact that Clinton was thinking about taking out NORAD...

I've given you my source...

Either way, we've gotta a problem... We still have nuclear tipped warheads from some lunatic fringe groups/countries that are aiming toward the US... And detente is NOT working in these folks minds...

An ICBM is an InterContinental Ballistic Missile. Despite the name, it is understood to mean that it can hit a target, half way around the globe, in under 30 minutes. You probably meant an IRBM.

Do you actually know what SU-22s and TU22s are? You can read about the SU-22 here:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-17.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-22m.htm

These are very old designs. Why would China buy them from Russia? Also, considering China's reputation with intellectual property rights (I'm thinking specifically about the many Soviet/Russian military designs that China has stolen over the decades,) why would Russia sell to them? MOST importantly, how is this relevant to anything discussed in this thread?

AIn addition to all of this, you have not provided any sources.

Also, what are you talking about with NORAD? Is that just a non-sequitur thrown in for fun?

As far as what's going on in the minds of North Koreans, how do you know?

[Rollergirl2001]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
But in all technicality it wasn't a viable scenario until 9-11 happened.

War is always a "scenario" but it isn't "viable" until someone makes it viable. 9-11 made going to Afghanistan (spelling issues today) viable. Then President Bush (in his oh so infinate wisdom) decided to make war with Iraq "viable".

My brother and all the other members of the military didn't ask for the latter, but it happened just the same.

I can say with about 95% certaintanty that had 9-11 been "foresable" my brother wouldn't have joined the military. He wants to be a pilot and that's the reason he joined. Obviously I don't know the intimate details of why he joined except for what has been told to me by him or my parents. Yes, he is using his benefits. He doesn't want your sympathy nor would my brother accept it.

As much as he despised going overseas and as much as he hates being there now, he understands that he has a job to do, he just doesn't like it.

But unlike the rest of us who disagree with this war and the way the country is being run he can't just GTFO because that would be AWOL for him.

My brother would rather be home with his family and with his friends than having to worry about his life. Yes, his worry is far less because he is in Kuwait. But until he is safe and sound on US soil, he is still in danger as far as I'm concerned.

That mother has every right to question President Bush. He gave bullshit reasons for pulling us into this war. He gives bullshit responses to the other 1000 men and women who have died.

No one is going to change my mind about this. No one is going to make me agree with this war because I never will.

President Bush needs to stop worrying about people in countries 10,000 miles away and start worrying about his OWN PEOPLE.

He should be worrying about us. Where gas is steadily approaching 3 dollars a gallon for unleaded. Where our education system sucks but yet he made NCLB a law with NO FUNDING behind it (and as a teacher I despise NCLB. It will be leaving more children behind than it is "designed" to do). Where illegal immigration is on the rise (and coming from a state with HIGH illegal immigration, it is a big concern of mine). Where the medicare system is in shambles (come on people, we all have grandparents. My grandparents are on a fixed income they cannot afford to pay more than a 10-20 buck copay for doctors visits or prescriptions). This are things I personally feel he needs to start worryin about instead of taking vacations every other month in his Texas ranch or about a war in Iraq.

Bring our men and women home and start worrying about your own people.

end of my mini rant.

and if you can give me "proof" that Bush is "worrying" about the things I listed, give it to me. I will read it and I will make my own opinion and determination on it. But from where I'm sitting it seems like he hasn't done a damn thing to make Americans lives any easier.

<Applause>

I agree. I'm sorry for your brother.

I think that the mom had a right to protest. Just becasue you are against the war, doesn't mean you're anti-American. Speaking out against the war IS AMERICAN. We were given rights. One of them is a right to freedom of speech.

We should have not been in Ira after Saddam Hussein has been captured. After Sadam we should have been focusing our bums on capturing Osama bin Laden. I believe that if we were to focus on bin Laden and captur him, then probably the Madrid and London bombings would not have happen.

Bush should worry about things that are more important here: gas prices, NCLB, crime. As a matter of fact, homicides have gone up and my city will pass that mark from last year. In fact, we are almost at that rate right now. Did Bush reinstate ban those weapons that were on the gun control bills? I didn't hear anything.

Bush is hurting the minorities, poor, and middle class people. The only people that Bush care about is the rich people. The minimum wage is horrible, and people who are getting paid by this are suffering. Go to a grocery store or order pizza. Are the prices higher than before? Some people can't afford milk, bread, eggs, and meat all together.

I speak proudly against the war, and if you don't like what I said then I'm sorry, buthe war is just not right, period. Now, if this was WWII, I would suppprt the war. WWII and the current Iraq war are two different stories.

[Dvyne Evolushun]

Originally posted by Rollergirl2001
<Applause>



Bush should worry about things that are more important here: gas prices, NCLB, crime. As a matter of fact, homicides have gone up and my city will pass that mark from last year. In fact, we are almost at that rate right now. Did Bush reinstate ban those weapons that were on the gun control bills? I didn't hear anything.

Sorry, but he is currently on vacation.

Originally posted by Rollergirl2001

Bush is hurting the minorities, poor, and middle class people. The only people that Bush care about is the rich people. The minimum wage is horrible, and people who are getting paid by this are suffering. Go to a grocery store or order pizza. Are the prices higher than before? Some people can't afford milk, bread, eggs, and meat all together.

I also heard in the news today that some school supplies are now more expensive because of the price of petro, i.e. crayons.

[Lindz928]

I had a whole long response typed out, but I realized that no one here wants to hear the point of view of someone who supports President Bush and in the end it will just upset me. So, here is the only part of it that I felt comfortable stating. If you expect people to respect your opinion on the war, just please make sure you respect people who disagree with you.

As for the price of gas, it is as has been regularly, around the $5 mark in Europe for years. We are still paying much less than they are.


I have someone who I care VERY much about. He went to a military college knowing that he would likely be in a dangerous situation at some point. He will be leaving for Iraq next summer.

I also have a friend who has recently RE-ENLISTED in the Army. In 2 weeks he will be leaving for his third tour in Iraq.

I am terrified for these people who I care about. But they are both confident that they are doing the right thing, the necessary thing and tell me not to worry. I will continue to support what they are doing over there.

[amanda6035]

Lindz928, you got more patience than I do....I finally started cussing at the computer and keeping my responses to myself because I knew it was a waste of time to argue my point anymore. But youre absolutely right, they are doing the right thing and the best we can do is support them.

[kddani]

Originally posted by amanda6035
Lindz928, you got more patience than I do....I finally started cussing at the computer and keeping my responses to myself because I knew it was a waste of time to argue my point anymore. But youre absolutely right, they are doing the right thing and the best we can do is support them.

Why does people not agreeing with you over something political upset you to that point? How can you deal with anything in real life? This has been a decent discussion and hasn't been all that heated. Both sides have tried to post intelligent thoughts.

AGAIN- WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH THE WAR. For those of you who seem to get SO upset because people disagree with the war and the President, perhaps you should become more familiar with the first amendment and the founding of our country.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Rollergirl2001
<Applause>

I agree. I'm sorry for your brother.

I think that the mom had a right to protest. Just becasue you are against the war, doesn't mean you're anti-American. Speaking out against the war IS AMERICAN. We were given rights. One of them is a right to freedom of speech.

We should have not been in Ira after Saddam Hussein has been captured. After Sadam we should have been focusing our bums on capturing Osama bin Laden. I believe that if we were to focus on bin Laden and captur him, then probably the Madrid and London bombings would not have happen.

Bush should worry about things that are more important here: gas prices, NCLB, crime. As a matter of fact, homicides have gone up and my city will pass that mark from last year. In fact, we are almost at that rate right now. Did Bush reinstate ban those weapons that were on the gun control bills? I didn't hear anything.

Bush is hurting the minorities, poor, and middle class people. The only people that Bush care about is the rich people. The minimum wage is horrible, and people who are getting paid by this are suffering. Go to a grocery store or order pizza. Are the prices higher than before? Some people can't afford milk, bread, eggs, and meat all together.

I speak proudly against the war, and if you don't like what I said then I'm sorry, buthe war is just not right, period. Now, if this was WWII, I would suppprt the war. WWII and the current Iraq war are two different stories.

Not to mention those employers who are forced to close their businesses because they can't afford to keep a payroll, which in turn screws themself and their employees, and there's nothing they can do about it. My dad had to close his construction company because no one has the money to buy or build things, and he couldn't afford employees. It's a vicious cycle. If you think the job market is bad where you (general) are, come to Michigan, where every job opening you need to have 2-5 years experience because there are that many experienced people with no jobs. Not being able to find a job after college graduation, or better yet the thousands of people graduating with teaching degrees who can't find a job because schools are constantly being shut down and more experienced teachers getting let go. And it's not like they can transfer to another state, because that takes takign another certification test, and money obviously to move.

All this happened after 9-11. WTF.

[Lindz928]

Originally posted by kddani
Why does people not agreeing with you over something political upset you to that point? How can you deal with anything in real life? This has been a decent discussion and hasn't been all that heated. Both sides have tried to post intelligent thoughts.

AGAIN- WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH THE WAR. For those of you who seem to get SO upset because people disagree with the war and the President, perhaps you should become more familiar with the first amendment and the founding of our country.

I have to say that I found your post slightly rude. "How can you deal with anything in real life?" I personally don't appreciate that, even if it was not directed toward me.

And to imply that us getting upset means that we don't understand the First Amendment is just offensive.

We also have every right to our opinions, and my feeling is that that opinion is not respected. I do not feel that I can post some of my true feelings because every opinion I speak is meet with posts that are trying to shoot down how I feel, and sometimes even full of sarcasm. I find that very disrespectful.

It saddens me that no one here will just let us agree to disagree. My opinion is just as valid as all of yours. I think we need to remember that when it comes down to it, we are all on the same side here. We are all Americans and we all want our loved ones to be safe. I would love it if we could focus on that, but sadly apparently we cannot.

Thank you.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Lindz928


It saddens me that no one here will just let us agree to disagree.

A lot of people on GreekChat like to argue for the sake of an argument. Maybe it's because they're training to be negotiators or lawyers or whatever, but the longer I'm here, the more I've noticed that.

Once you realize it, and learn not to give them ammunition, it's a lot easier to state your opinion, and let them have theirs. I'm not saying to back down, I'm just saying that picking your battles is a part of life.

[wrigley]

I think it's agreed that we want all of our loved ones to be safe.

It bothers me that the military who are sent overseas are not equipped with up-to-date equipment. How many articles have been printed about families who have to pay out of pocket costs to send for improved protective vests so their sons and daughters will be kept safe? I couldn't find any numbers online that showed the percentage of Congressional members who have sons and daughters serving in the war.

It seems that our government isn't doing a good job in appropriating funds so that military families don't have to scramble to have basic needs met. If average Americans are expected to take a hit in the pocketbook for the war, why can't Congress take a paycut in salary?

The initial group of military families, that included Mrs. Sheehan, who were chosen to meet with President Bush were most likely screened to ensure that they were pro-war. She has a right to change her mind.

Is it true that the number of dead counted don't inlude the soliders who come home and die on American soil as a result of their injuries sustained in this war?