Bush Wins

[kddani]

Everyone loves to throw around buzz words like "discrimination"

Christians are not being discriminated against (and yes, I am one, Catholic, however, which many Christians don't consider Christian but it is).

Not being able to pray in school comes under the "time, place, and manner" restrictions that the courts have interpreted that the first amendment allows for. Your right to pray is not being taken away. You can pray silently or very quietly in school. You can pray outside of school. No one is telling you what you can and cannot pray (i.e. "content"). No one is telling you that you can't be a Christian.

Homosexuals, however, are being told that they can't do a certain thing that everyone else in the country can (i.e. get married). Doesn't matter where they go, how they try, or when they try, they can't do it. They cannot enjoy a right that every other American can.

And on the topic of how upset people are- it is incredible. I work for a Plaintiff's firm, which many Republicans have depicted as the big evil devil this this campaign. I have seen and talked to attorneys (some of whom are actually Repubican- i.e. my boss is a republican and mayor of his town) who are so defeated looking, and are so scared for what their future holds. It's not just that Bush is President, it's that the religious right (which for me personally is the faction of the republican party that I have a strong distaste for) controls the House and Senate. It's a scary scary thought. At least 48 % of us are feeling in a way that it's "taxation without representation"- our interests are not going to be represented and looked out for.

ETA: an elected official is supposed to represent ALL of his constitutents and look out for ALL of their needs. He or she is NOT elected just to represent the people that voted for him. The great many of us fear that that's exactly what is being done here- that Bush is going to represent the interests of half the country, and the other half is being left out in the cold.

As an aside, i'm glad that this thread seems to have at least some intelligent discussion and not just all bashing.

[AGDee]

You can pray anywhere you want to. You can't make anybody else pray. I pray all the time.. at work, in my car, before each meal, at school before I go to my son's parent-teacher conference... everywhere! However, if I am not just as willing to have a school say a Muslim prayer, a Wiccan prayer, etc, with my children, then I'm not willing to have them say a Christian prayer collectively. If I'm not willing to have Allah on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, or have other people's Gods in those places, then I don't think we should push our God on others either. If I'm going to believe that other countries, who have laws based on their religion, which repress women's rights, are wrong and restricting people's freedom, then I have to follow the same philosophy when it comes to our own country.. that there needs to be justification for laws OTHER than religion. For most laws, this is true.

I am of the philosophy that laws should be in place to protect people's rights, not restrict them. If a behavior doesn't harm others or infringe or their civil rights, then it shouldn't be illegal. (so yes, I think Prostitution should be legal, private drug use should be legal, etc.)

Dee

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AGDee
I knew people who truly couldn't stand Clinton, but I didn't hear people (like on NPR today) who felt that the country was pushing them out because there are now state Constitutional amendments that encourage discrimination. There are people who feel that they cannot continue to live in the United States because they don't have the same rights here as other citizens. I think people are becoming personally offended by the way other Americans are treating them or talking about them. I know I get personally offended when I hear Bush talking about important marriage is in our society and how we need to keep families together, since I've been divorced twice. I know a lot of people (mainly women) who are very offended that someone wants to tell them what they can and cannot do with their uterus. I know others who are very worried about the way the Patriot Act has been implemented, and how it takes away our civil rights.

Also, particularly with the gay marriage issue, they aren't feeling alienated by the President per se, but by the general population. The man I heard them interviewing on NPR today was in tears and said "I just want to marry my partner, like other people get to do".

Dee

Its funny how people don't get their "way" so they want to pout an leave instead of stay and fight for their "cause." Sounds like a toddler having a temper tantrum to me. I say let them go to other countries...and then when/if they come back..they will appreciate the good ol US of A.

[AGDee]

I think they feel hopeless that they have any chance to fight for their cause.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AGDee
I think they feel hopeless that they have any chance to fight for their cause.

It seems libs are getting a taste of what its been like to live in America...as a conservative...how do you think conservatives felt before FOX news and talk radio LOL... At least conservatives stayed and fought for what they believed in..

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Its funny how people don't get their "way" so they want to pout an leave instead of stay and fight for their "cause." Sounds like a toddler having a temper tantrum to me. I say let them go to other countries...and then when/if they come back..they will appreciate the good ol US of A.

Actually, at least here, they are fighting to the best of their ability. The day after the amendment passed, a constitutional challenge was filed. Now, since our supreme court is retained or removed by ballot every 4 years, there's no way in hell they'll rule in favor of the challenge. However, it will open the door to the US Supreme Court if they'll take the case.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
there were a lot of ppl i knew who were just as concerned during the clinton administration.

Nope, no there weren't.



PS - although my political ideology is (relatively) similar to that held by you and kitso . . . don't you jackmoves see that by acting like hoosier, you reinforce stereotypes about republicans and make us look like fucks? Knock it off, add something constructive beyond "BUSH IS HOTTTTT! 4 MORE YEARS!", and discuss constructively. For the love of God.

[kddani]

Thank you!

Originally posted by KSig RC

PS - although my political ideology is (relatively) similar to that held by you and kitso . . . don't you jackmoves see that by acting like hoosier, you reinforce stereotypes about republicans and make us look like fucks? Knock it off, add something constructive beyond "BUSH IS HOTTTTT! 4 MORE YEARS!", and discuss constructively. For the love of God.

This moment of clarity has been brought to you by KSig RC

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
yes, there is discrimination. there has ALWAYS been discrimination. and for the past while, there has been an amazing amount of discrimination against Christians. that offends me....personally. we are not allowed to pray in schools (unless we're quiet about it), we are not allowed to say the pledge to the flag b/c of "under God"....it will more than likely be taken off of our currency sooner than later. it will never be fair to EVERYONE.....but no one was screaming "discrimination" when anything was taken away from us. when Christians are being persecuted and denied what we believed to be our rights, people are like, "so?" we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever. yeah, we're allowed to get married, but marriage to us is a holy thing....it's not a civil right or an American priviledge, but something given to us by God. that's why most conservatives want it protected, so to speak, b/c they see gays as habitual and unremorseful sinners that should not partake in such a holy gift. again, not saying that i agree, but that's what i understand.
ss.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA - I'll keep it shorter:


1 - Gays need rights 'given' to them (or more likely 'protected') because YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM - giving them to someone else is NOT PERSECUTION toward you. Jesus.


2 - Nothing that was given to you by (your) God should EVER BE LEGALLY PROTECTED. Our nation was founded on this principal at its heart. If you put on the tinfoil hat and say "it's not in the constitution!" I will mop the floor with you. [note that this is slight hyperbole, as you can claim you were 'given' your life, and obviously murder should still be illegal]


3 - Christians have never been persecuted, and they do NOT have the 'right' to enact prayers in school except for on their own time w/out intruding on others. What you claim is akin to saying whites are being persecuted b/c they can't have their own water fountains, separate from blacks, anymore.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Michael Moore has been strangely silent, hasn't he? He is the only Kerry supporter I would really enjoy saying "nah nah nah" to. Well, him and that record producer guy with the terrible overbite who used to date JLo. He annoyed me with his dumb "vote or die" logo.

Originally posted by FAB*SpiceySpice
LOL are you talking about P Diddy?

I agree, that vote or die crap was pretty STUPID.

No, I think his name has something to do with Puff-something? Puffy Puff, maybe? Master Puff? LOL, something nonsensical like that.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
we didn't want roe v wade, but here it is. why should one group of this country get more consideration than another? they shouldn't, but it happens. it's cool to be gay and need rights, but it's not cool to be a Christian....ever.

But the difference is, a Christian has the choice to not get an abortion. Without Roe v. Wade, someone who wants to have an abortion (Christian or not) wouldn't have that choice.

- AXiD670, a pro-choice Christian

And Killarney Rose, you're thinking of Puffy, aka Puff Daddy, aka P. Diddy, aka Sean Combs, aka Sean Puffy Combs.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
i'm not going to say much on this b/c i agree that there should be no marriage ammendment....so i'll make this as short as i can and hope that i am not taken out of context. <snip>

As a Christian, I can understand why you're upset, but the thruth of the matter is, there was a time in this country where Christianity was the norm and the daily life of its people relied heavily on Christian traditions. It isn't that way anymore and our country needs to change to reflect that. We have been so used to doing 'whatever we wanted' with regards to our religion in this country, it may seem that we're being 'stifled' or 'discriminated' against, when in reality, we're not. It's not going to be easy to learn, but we're going to have to.

You know, if my very Conservative, very Lutheran father (who was very upset when my sister converted to Catholicism to marry her husband) can come to terms and be accepting of his lesbian cousin living with her life partner, I think there is hope for the rest of the country.

Point of information: the words "Under God" weren't added to the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954. A time in our post-war country when Christian Conservativity (is that even a word?) was at an all-time high. We seemed to do okay for 60 years prior to that, I think we'll be okay now.

[Kevin]

NEWSWEEK ELECTION ISSUE: 'How He Did It'
Thursday November 4, 2:37 pm ET
Kerry Laments: 'I Can't Believe I'm Losing to This Idiot'
Carville Leads Clintonistas' Coups, Implores Cahill to Step Aside or He'll 'Tell The Truth' About Campaign Woes On NBC's 'Meet The Press'
Daughter Alexandra Pleads to Kerry After Locking in Nomination: 'Will You Please Appreciate This Moment for 10 Seconds?'

# NEW YORK, Nov. 4 /PRNewswire/ -- When President Bush's poll numbers surged in April after a press conference where his performance was derided by the press and the chattering classes, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry was baffled, writes Newsweek Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas in an exclusive report in Newsweek's special election issue. "He said with a sigh to one top staffer, 'I can't believe I'm losing to this idiot.'"(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20041104/NYTH186 )

The November 15 issue "How He Did It" (on newsstands Thursday, November 4) includes an exclusive behind-the-scenes account of the entire presidential campaign reported by a separate Newsweek Special Project team that worked for more than a year on the extraordinary campaign. Highlights from the report:

The Clintonista "Coups." At several critical junctures Kerry's campaign (and the candidate himself), struggled to find sure footing. Following the missteps of August, Clinton veteran James Carville confronted Kerry campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill, telling her she had to step aside and let newly arrived Joe Lockhart run the campaign. So worked up, Carville began to cry, imploring Cahill: "You've got to let him do it." Carville continued, "Nobody can gain power without someone losing power." Carville threatened to go on "Meet the Press" the next day "and tell the truth about how bad it is" if Cahill didn't give effective control to Lockhart.

The "Outlandish" McCain Offer. Kerry's courtship of Senator John McCain to be his running mate was longer-standing and more intense than previously reported. As far back as August 2003, Kerry had taken McCain to breakfast to sound him out to run on a unity ticket. McCain batted away the idea as not serious, but Kerry, after he wrapped up the nomination in March, went back after McCain a half-dozen more times. "To show just how sincere he was, he made an outlandish offer," Newsweek's Thomas reports. "If McCain said yes he would expand the role of vice president to include secretary of Defense and the overall control of foreign policy. McCain exclaimed, 'You're out of your mind. I don't even know if it's constitutional, and it certainly wouldn't sell.'" Kerry was thwarted and furious. "Why the f--- didn't he take it? After what the Bush people did to him...'"

"A Marathon Man." Kerry's intensity on the trail rarely, if ever, faded. Moments after delivering his victory speech after wrapping up his party's nomination on March 2, Kerry was back in his motorcade and on his cell phone. "Dad," asked his daughter Alexandra. "Will you please appreciate this moment for 10 seconds?" Newsweek reports, "He mumbled yes, yes, he was happy, it was good, and then went back to working the cell phone." It occurred to his daughter Vanessa that her father did not match the media's clichi of him being a fourth-quarter player, he was a marathon man. Writes Thomas, "Kerry liked to say that 'every day is extra' after Vietnam, but actually every day was like the day before, a relentless march toward his goal."

Kerry's drive to self-perfection was boundless-sometimes to a fault. In early spring he sought counsel from Washington speech coach Michael Sheehan. With aides he would sometimes say, "Tell me everything you think I'm doing wrong." When John Sasso arrived on the campaign in September he found a candidate who had turned himself into a pincushion. "Kerry had been inviting personal criticism from pretty much anyone who had an opinion...Kerry was drowning in negative energy from all around," Thomas writes. Sasso wanted it to stop. There was to be no more direct criticism of the candidate, period. And Teresa and the daughters were not exempt, Newsweek reports.

Additional exclusive news reported in Newsweek's Special Election Issue:

Clinton Advice Spurned. Looking for a way to pick up swing voters in the Red States, former President Bill Clinton, in a phone call with Kerry, urged the Senator to back local bans on gay marriage. Kerry respectfully listened, then told his aides, "I'm not going to ever do that."

Kerry Anger Over Swift Boat Ads. By August, the attack of the Swift Boat veterans was getting to Kerry. He called adviser Tad Devine, who was prepping to appear on "Meet The Press" the next day: "It's a pack of f---ing lies, what they're saying about me," he fairly shouted over the phone. Kerry blamed his advisers for his predicament. (Cahill and Shrum argued responding to the ads would only dignify them.) He had wanted to fight back; they had counseled caution. Even Kerry's ex-wife, Julia Thorne, was very upset about the ads, she told daughter Vanessa. She could remember how Kerry had suffered in Vietnam; she had seen the scars on his body, heard him cry out at night in his nightmares. She was so agitated about the unfairness of the Swift Boat assault that she told Vanessa she was ready to break her silence, to speak out and personally answer the Swift Boat charges. She changed her mind only when she was reassured that the campaign was about to start fighting back hard.

Managing Teresa. Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, presented a host of behind-the-scenes drama for Kerry. Early on, the campaign staff regarded Teresa as something of a hypochondriac, and she canceled three trips in October at the last minute, usually for what was described to aides as a "nonspecific malady." Kerry's first campaign manager, James Jordan, had little patience for her strong opinions, sending emails trashing the candidate's wife...which inevitably reached his rivals within the campaign, including Bob Shrum (an old Teresa friend) and helped seal Jordan's eventual dismissal.

Later came Kerry campaign's post-convention "Sea to Shining Sea" tour: a 3,500-mile bus and train trek that was not a happy trip for Teresa. With each passing day she made less effort to hide her displeasure. Audiences were mystified when Teresa turned her back to them at daylight rallies and wore dark sunglasses and a hat at night (backstage, the candidate's wife complained of migraines and sore eyes). As they reached the climax of the tour, an hourlong "family vacation" hike in the Grand Canyon, the planned happy-family- vacation was disintegrating in plain view. Daughter Vanessa didn't enjoy being a prop, Teresa was complaining of migraines and telling her husband she couldn't walk anymore. The candidate tried to bravely soldier on, pulling his sullen wife and children to show them the magnificent condors flying overhead.

Edwards Campaigns for Veep. Hours after bowing out of the presidential nomination race on March 3, the senator from North Carolina convened a small circle of his closest advisers at his house on P Street in Georgetown. He wanted the veep nomination, Edwards told his aides, he wanted it badly, and from that moment was going to wage "a full-fledged campaign" to ensure that he got it.

Shades of Dukakis. In early August, when the Swift Boat story started to pick up steam on the talk shows, Susan Estrich, a California law professor, well-known liberal talking head and onetime campaign manager for Michael Dukakis, had called the Kerry campaign for marching orders. She had been booked on Fox's "Hannity & Colmes" to talk about the Swift Boat ads. What are the talking points? Estrich asked the Kerry campaign. There are none, she was told. Estrich was startled. She had seen this bad movie before.

Newsweek's 2004 Special Election Issue marks the magazine's sixth consecutive installment of providing a behind-the-scenes account of the entire presidential campaign. The 50,000-word inside story was written by Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas and edited by Special Projects Director Alexis Gelber. The project's correspondents are: Jonathan Darman (with Kerry), Kevin Peraino (with Bush) and Contributing Editors Eleanor Clift and Peter Goldman.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by AGDee
You can pray anywhere you want to. You can't make anybody else pray. I pray all the time.. at work, in my car, before each meal, at school before I go to my son's parent-teacher conference... everywhere! However, if I am not just as willing to have a school say a Muslim prayer, a Wiccan prayer, etc, with my children, then I'm not willing to have them say a Christian prayer collectively. If I'm not willing to have Allah on our currency, or in our pledge of allegiance, or have other people's Gods in those places, then I don't think we should push our God on others either. If I'm going to believe that other countries, who have laws based on their religion, which repress women's rights, are wrong and restricting people's freedom, then I have to follow the same philosophy when it comes to our own country.. that there needs to be justification for laws OTHER than religion. For most laws, this is true.

I am of the philosophy that laws should be in place to protect people's rights, not restrict them. If a behavior doesn't harm others or infringe or their civil rights, then it shouldn't be illegal. (so yes, I think Prostitution should be legal, private drug use should be legal, etc.)

Dee

That's some healthy Libertarian thinking ya got there!!!

[AGDee]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
It seems libs are getting a taste of what its been like to live in America...as a conservative...how do you think conservatives felt before FOX news and talk radio LOL... At least conservatives stayed and fought for what they believed in..

What weren't you able to do when the Democratic party was at the helm that you are allowed to do now?