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  #136  
Old 02-13-2006, 03:35 PM
hoosier hoosier is offline
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"It is hypocritical for Muslims to protest cartoons caricaturing Muhammad when cartoons vilifying the symbols of Christianity and Judaism are found everywhere in the media of many Arab countries. After all, what's the difference? The difference is that those who draw and publish such cartoons in Arab countries believe in their content; they believe that Jews and Christians follow false religions and are proper objects of hatred and obloquy."--Stanley Fish, New York Times, Feb._12, 2006
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  #137  
Old 02-14-2006, 01:14 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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"Since then the Danish media has not ceased to delve into Akari and Abu Laban's [the Muslim Danes that started the riots] past. Apparently, the Imam was deported from Egypt due to his membership in the Muslim Brotherhood. Other reports said Abu Laban sheltered Al-Qaida members in his house, including the organization's No. 2, when they were driven out of Egypt in the 1980s. "

-Rudey
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  #138  
Old 03-05-2006, 08:06 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/in...gewanted=print

February 22, 2006
Furor Over Cartoons Pits Muslim Against Muslim

By MICHAEL SLACKMAN
and HASSAN M. FATTAH
AMMAN, Jordan, Feb. 21 — In a direct challenge to the international uproar over cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad, the Jordanian journalist Jihad Momani wrote: "What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras, or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony?"

In Yemen, an editorial by Muhammad al-Assadi condemned the cartoons but also lamented the way many Muslims reacted. "Muslims had an opportunity to educate the world about the merits of the Prophet Muhammad and the peacefulness of the religion he had come with," Mr. Assadi wrote. He added, "Muslims know how to lose, better than how to use, opportunities."

To illustrate their points, both editors published selections of the drawings — and for that they were arrested and threatened with prison.

Mr. Momani and Mr. Assadi are among 11 journalists in five countries facing prosecution for printing some of the cartoons. Their cases illustrate another side of this conflict, the intra-Muslim side, in what has typically been defined as a struggle between Islam and the West.

The flare-up over the cartoons, first published in a Danish newspaper, has magnified a fault line running through the Middle East, between those who want to engage their communities in a direct, introspective dialogue and those who focus on outside enemies.

But it has also underscored a political struggle involving emerging Islamic movements, like Hamas in Gaza and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and Arab governments unsure of how to contain them.

"This has become a game between two sides, the extremists and the government," said Tawakkul Karman, head of Women Journalists Without Constraints in Sana, Yemen. "They've made it so that if you stand up in this tidal wave, you have to face 1.5 billion Muslims."

While the cartoons have infuriated Muslims, the regional dynamics underlying the conflict have been evolving for decades, during which leaders have tried to stall the rise of Islamic political appeal by trying to establish themselves as guardians of the faith.

In Jordan, King Abdullah II, who has been trying to control the most extreme religious forces in the region, came out with such a powerful condemnation of Shihan, the newspaper Mr. Momani edited, that even some of his allies were taken aback.

The newspaper printed three cartoons without obscuring them, including one depicting the prophet in a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse. Many of the king's supporters said he felt the need to respond as firmly as he did partly because of the rise of Hamas, which won parliamentary elections in Gaza, and to strip the Islamists in Jordan of an issue to rally around.

"What Shihan did was a corruption on earth, which cannot be accepted or excused under any circumstances," the Royal Court said in a statement.

But now there seems to be a growing concern and in some circles a degree of regret for unleashing a wave of anger that has claimed lives. In Jordan, authorities moved quickly to release the journalists from detention. In Libya, where spontaneous protests are unheard of, allowing protests over the cartoons seemed a safe bet for the authorities — until protesters began criticizing the government. At least 11 people were killed in clashes with the police.

"Anyone who insults the prophet must face the sword," said one imam in a recent Friday sermon in Yemen. Another announced, "The government must execute them."

"I am telling my people, 'Be rational, think before you go into the streets,' " he said. "Who harms Islam more? This European guy who paints Muhammad or the real Muslim guy who cuts a hostage's head off and says, 'Allah-u akbar?' Who insults our religion, this guy or the European guy?"

-Rudey
--Please see link for full article
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  #139  
Old 03-05-2006, 09:34 PM
jubilance1922 jubilance1922 is offline
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Quote:

"I am telling my people, 'Be rational, think before you go into the streets,' " he said. "Who harms Islam more? This European guy who paints Muhammad or the real Muslim guy who cuts a hostage's head off and says, 'Allah-u akbar?' Who insults our religion, this guy or the European guy?"
[/B]
This is a great quote. Perhaps people are starting to wake up.
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  #140  
Old 03-11-2006, 01:02 AM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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This is exactly the kind of work and action it's going to take to win against the fundamentalists. I think more money should be funneled into groups that promote this type of introspection.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/in...nt&oref=slogin

March 11, 2006
The Saturday Profile
For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats
By JOHN M. BRODER

LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.

In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.

"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.

Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.

She is probably more welcome in Tel Aviv than she would be in Damascus. Shortly after the broadcast, clerics in Syria denounced her as an infidel. One said she had done Islam more damage than the Danish cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad, a wire service reported.

DR. SULTAN is "working on a book that — if it is published — it's going to turn the Islamic world upside down."

"I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book."

The working title is, "The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster."

Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."

She and her husband, who now goes by the Americanized name of David, laid plans to leave for the United States. Their visas finally came in 1989, and the Sultans and their two children (they have since had a third) settled in with friends in Cerritos, Calif., a prosperous bedroom community on the edge of Los Angeles County.

After a succession of jobs and struggles with language, Dr. Sultan has completed her American medical licensing, with the exception of a hospital residency program, which she hopes to do within a year. David operates an automotive-smog-check station. They bought a home in the Los Angeles area and put their children through local public schools. All are now American citizens.

BUT even as she settled into a comfortable middle-class American life, Dr. Sultan's anger burned within. She took to writing, first for herself, then for an Islamic reform Web site called Annaqed (The Critic), run by a Syrian expatriate in Phoenix.

An angry essay on that site by Dr. Sultan about the Muslim Brotherhood caught the attention of Al Jazeera, which invited her to debate an Algerian cleric on the air last July.

In the debate, she questioned the religious teachings that prompt young people to commit suicide in the name of God. "Why does a young Muslim man, in the prime of life, with a full life ahead, go and blow himself up?" she asked. "In our countries, religion is the sole source of education and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched."

Her remarks set off debates around the globe and her name began appearing in Arabic newspapers and Web sites. But her fame grew exponentially when she appeared on Al Jazeera again on Feb. 21, an appearance that was translated and widely distributed by the Middle East Media Research Institute, known as Memri.

Memri said the clip of her February appearance had been viewed more than a million times.

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations," Dr. Sultan said. "It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality."

She said she no longer practiced Islam. "I am a secular human being," she said.

The other guest on the program, identified as an Egyptian professor of religious studies, Dr. Ibrahim al-Khouli, asked, "Are you a heretic?" He then said there was no point in rebuking or debating her, because she had blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Koran.

Dr. Sultan said she took those words as a formal fatwa, a religious condemnation. Since then, she said, she has received numerous death threats on her answering machine and by e-mail.

One message said: "Oh, you are still alive? Wait and see." She received an e-mail message the other day, in Arabic, that said, "If someone were to kill you, it would be me."

Dr. Sultan said her mother, who still lives in Syria, is afraid to contact her directly, speaking only through a sister who lives in Qatar. She said she worried more about the safety of family members here and in Syria than she did for her own.

"I have no fear," she said. "I believe in my message. It is like a million-mile journey, and I believe I have walked the first and hardest 10 miles."

-Rudey
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  #141  
Old 03-12-2006, 09:20 AM
mulattogyrl mulattogyrl is offline
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I'm almost afraid to respond to this.
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  #142  
Old 03-14-2006, 09:27 AM
Shortfuse Shortfuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by _Opi_
I think that you've been duped by the media, rudey. Radical Islam didn't grow, because there is no such thing. The situation with Alqieda and other terrorist groups are rather complicated, and have a very long history. In this case, I would suggest in reading up on the Muslim brotherhood (Egypt 1928), Middle-eastern conflicts since the fall of the ottoman empire, the hanbali sect of Islam that Saudis practice (especially the wahhabi movement). There is just too much history for the media's short-attention span to put together for the public. So they resort to name-shortening like Islamists, "Jihadist", Islamics, fundamentalism (not even in its original form) and sensationalising the heck out of it. In restrospect, this is not about Islam but rather politics and a strong dislike for western policies and the oil trade.

So back to the original question, is "Radical Islam" on the rise? It depends, do you think that these terrorist orgs can find recruits in the middle-east whom they can easy turn towards their cause (anti-western)? Heck yeah, you can find a large base in Iraq post-war, and Afghanistan post-war. You have alot of angry displaced guys who might view american soldiers as colonizers. And trust me, these guys are doing it for nationalistic purposes than for God. However, we can speculate all day long whether its growing or not, but the truth of the matter is, these al-qieda and the like have been barking for over 3 decades, and we've only decided to hear them now. and only after they attacked american soil. So its not really a defunct sect of Islam growing, its peoples's resentment for the wars and the willingness to fight a false-jihad.

The problem with these discussions are that people don't really know a inkling about Islam, and therefore talk about the regular stereotypes of Islam (ie burkas, which are worn in generally in Afghan) and the term "infidels" (generally used by arab-speaking folks). What most people don't seem to understand is that there are variety of denominations of Islam, much like Christianity. Also, like moe.ron stated, Islam encompasses alot of countries, ie South east Asia, Africa, N. America, S America. Not all these muslims say words like "infidel" in their regular vocab like the media portrays us to be, and not all of us speak Arabic.
Said all that I want to say. I'm Muslim and I only know a few words of Arabic.
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  #143  
Old 03-14-2006, 09:31 AM
Shortfuse Shortfuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rudey
Well I'm sure we can create a thread on other fundamentalist movements but I'd like to concentrate on Islam for the sole reason that it will become too difficult to read this thread.

-Rudey

But we can because there's some relations to other "fundamentalist" movements in the world. I don't think it'll be TOO difficult to read as long as people relate the movements to the topic of your discussion. Ignoring other radical movements is dishonest because you're only telling half the story.

Oh and while we're talking terrorism and bloodshed and linking it to relgion.

Do we really have to compare blood drawn in the name of Christianity to blood drawn in the name of Islam? Some of ya actually believe Muslims just go from Country to Country blowing shit up. Trust me, for every bloody incident (Islamic) you can bring up, I can name a more than a few atrocities linked to religion that isn't Islam.

Last edited by Shortfuse; 03-14-2006 at 09:35 AM.
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  #144  
Old 03-14-2006, 10:44 AM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shortfuse

Oh and while we're talking terrorism and bloodshed and linking it to relgion.

Do we really have to compare blood drawn in the name of Christianity to blood drawn in the name of Islam? Some of ya actually believe Muslims just go from Country to Country blowing shit up. Trust me, for every bloody incident (Islamic) you can bring up, I can name a more than a few atrocities linked to religion that isn't Islam.
So can I, but giving the worlds current political climate, islamic extremists are newsworthy. Christianity has had some very bloody moments in history, but most of it was the PAST, whereas Al-Quada is still to this day/minute/second planning to kill.
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  #145  
Old 03-14-2006, 11:19 AM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shortfuse
But we can because there's some relations to other "fundamentalist" movements in the world. I don't think it'll be TOO difficult to read as long as people relate the movements to the topic of your discussion. Ignoring other radical movements is dishonest because you're only telling half the story.

Oh and while we're talking terrorism and bloodshed and linking it to relgion.

Do we really have to compare blood drawn in the name of Christianity to blood drawn in the name of Islam? Some of ya actually believe Muslims just go from Country to Country blowing shit up. Trust me, for every bloody incident (Islamic) you can bring up, I can name a more than a few atrocities linked to religion that isn't Islam.
Time and scale. If I see Christian terror groups today get the backing of countries and going around blowing up skyscrapers, I'll consider them on equal footing.

ETA: All religions are illogical. It's why it's called faith. However, it seems that any time there is a differing voice in the masses for Islam, they're silenced by a Saudi funded machine. Christianity and Judaism have people all over hating on them from the inside with no real effort to silence them.

-Rudey

Last edited by Rudey; 03-14-2006 at 11:31 AM.
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  #146  
Old 03-14-2006, 11:37 AM
Shortfuse Shortfuse is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rudey
Time and scale. If I see Christian terror groups today get the backing of countries and going around blowing up skyscrapers, I'll consider them on equal footing.

ETA: All religions are illogical. It's why it's called faith. However, it seems that any time there is a differing voice in the masses for Islam, they're silenced by a Saudi funded machine. Christianity and Judaism have people all over hating on them from the inside with no real effort to silence them.

-Rudey

Backing of countries? KKK?

Al-Queda doesn't get the backing from countries actually. Back would be like the US backing rebels in South America and Haiti. Backing would be what the US did for Saddam in the early 80s.


No effort to silence the anit-Judaism and Christianity voices? Come on Rudey at least be honest on this one.


PiKA, whenever you're ready to compare the body count, please be my guest.
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  #147  
Old 03-14-2006, 11:47 AM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shortfuse
Backing of countries? KKK?

Al-Queda doesn't get the backing from countries actually. Back would be like the US backing rebels in South America and Haiti. Backing would be what the US did for Saddam in the early 80s.


No effort to silence the anit-Judaism and Christianity voices? Come on Rudey at least be honest on this one.


PiKA, whenever you're ready to compare the body count, please be my guest.
KKK is trying to spread Christianity? Not really.

Al Quaeda gets funding from Arab royalty and was hosted in countries like Afghanistan with government approval.

And I am being honest. Where are all the Muslim critics? They're all being silenced and worry about fatwas calling for their death. Heck I would be too. Plus as an American, you have much more freedom to be a Muslim critic than you would if you were living in Jordan. Just look at the story of the woman above. Catholic critics are all over the place (filing lawsuits against child molesting priests fore example and pushing for the Church to change its ways).

-Rudey
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  #148  
Old 03-14-2006, 11:55 AM
KSig RC KSig RC is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shortfuse
PiKA, whenever you're ready to compare the body count, please be my guest.
This is amazingly ironic, considering your current signature.

Also, are you inferring that the KKK is funded by the government? Can you provide a citation for this?
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  #149  
Old 03-14-2006, 12:01 PM
Shortfuse Shortfuse is offline
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Originally posted by KSig RC
This is amazingly ironic, considering your current signature.

Also, are you inferring that the KKK is funded by the government? Can you provide a citation for this?
That's a good question.

Can't say it's funded by the government but I can say it has it's hands in the government.
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  #150  
Old 03-14-2006, 12:07 PM
PiKA2001 PiKA2001 is offline
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Originally posted by Shortfuse
That's a good question.

Can't say it's funded by the government but I can say it has it's hands in the government.
Let me make sure I got this right, no middle eastern country has any ties to ever backing terrorism, and the US is funding the KKK?
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