University fo Okahoma-Sigma Alpha Epsilon-Racial Chant

[Kevin]

Generally at OU, the GLOs own their own homes. SAE was different in that they leased that property from the school. In fact, the previous time they were thrown off of campus, the SAE house was used for administrative offices.

The SAE alumni have retained Stephen Jones, who is a "high profile" attorney who generally represents right-wing causes. They have a decent 1st Amendment claim--one that I'd personally like to see brought to federal court to possibly make some precedent. It would be nice to know the limits of power of public schools to punish conduct or speech they deem offensive.

There's probably a really solid suit for violations of the landlord-tenant act, what with OU summarily booting SAE from their rental property.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Generally at OU, the GLOs own their own homes. SAE was different in that they leased that property from the school. In fact, the previous time they were thrown off of campus, the SAE house was used for administrative offices.

The SAE alumni have retained Stephen Jones, who is a "high profile" attorney who generally represents right-wing causes. They have a decent 1st Amendment claim--one that I'd personally like to see brought to federal court to possibly make some precedent. It would be nice to know the limits of power of public schools to punish conduct or speech they deem offensive.

There's probably a really solid suit for violations of the landlord-tenant act, what with OU summarily booting SAE from their rental property.

I think they have a good free speech claim, and the men who were evicted but not on the bus have a good freedom of association claim, as well. They were summarily ordered to move out of their housing because they associate with racists. They probably also have a good due process claim -- even if the University was within its rights to boot them, they were entitled to notice and a hearing before ordered to move out of the house. The men who were expelled may also have a due process claim, if they did not have notice and hearing before being expelled.

I love the idea of landlord/tenant claims.

Oklahoma administration has handled this VERY badly. Those men were racists assholes, but they have a legal right to be racist assholes. There's not much a state university should do about it. If they had let SAE pull their charter and then went through the correct process to have the men move out of the leased premises, it would be different.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Oklahoma administration has handled this VERY badly. Those men were racists assholes, but they have a legal right to be racist assholes. There's not much a state university should do about it. If they had let SAE pull their charter and then went through the correct process to have the men move out of the leased premises, it would be different.

Is housing an OU administration issue? I thought SAE HQ pulled the charter prior to the OU administration saying that the members would be "kicked out" of the house.

Regardless, HQs close chapters for "just cause" (sometimes over "free speach" isses) and all members are required to move out of the house asap based on the GLO's policies. So unless each member has a housing lease directly with the university, and not the chapter's housing corporation, how is this any different?

(Note, I'm not a lawyer which is why I'm asking.)

[als463]

I don't agree with what happened at all but, I wonder how far is "too far" when talking about this situation. These young adults who made really stupid choices have now had their phone numbers and addresses posted. Their names are all out there for the world to see and they have been told to leave their fraternity and university. Stupid decision on their part? Sure. Should they be unemployable and not be able to get an education over their stupidity? I'm not sure. I get that they can go to other universities but, what school would want to take on a PR risk like that?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by als463

Should they be unemployable and not be able to get an education over their stupidity?

Yes.

The only way the answer to this question would be anything but yes is if they were 5 or under.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

And courts have upheld the rights of universities to limit speech.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

And courts have upheld the rights of universities to limit speech.

If it is targeting an individual, true. But most of these speech and conduct codes violate the hell out of the First Amendment. Hate speech is protected and schools are going to lose cases like these almost every time.

[*winter*]

Why shouldn't it follow them? Would you want to be their coworker? Is it fair to subject a black person to that? They mentioned lynching!

THey brought it upon themselves, bottom line. So smug, so sure they're just going to coast through life and never have consequences.

[ChioLu]

OU has an outside attorney to investigate: http://m.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/....html?mode=jqm

[Kevin]

You're stating that there are plenty of people who seek out racists to hire. You do like to ride the raggety edge of self-righteousness... here, I think you may have overstepped.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You're stating that there are plenty of people who seek out racists to hire. You do like to ride the raggety edge of self-righteousness... here, I think you may have overstepped.

In what sense? You don't think there are lots of people who see nothing wrong with the chant?

I'd personally love to think that anyone dumb enough to think it's okay to sing about lynching is also too dumb to be in a position of hiring authority, but that's not the country we live in.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

In what sense? You don't think there are lots of people who see nothing wrong with the chant?

I honestly don't think the SAE members thought the chant was okay. I think they were going for shock value for their dates and were just having a good time living dangerously by chanting stuff they knew would turn some heads. I'm just trying to get into the mind of a 19 year old privileged white kid (not too hard for me to do) and think that's more what was going on here. I'm not sure that's enough to make someone racist... but it certainly calls into question their judgment and character.

I'd personally love to think that anyone dumb enough to think it's okay to sing about lynching is also too dumb to be in a position of hiring authority, but that's not the country we live in.

But that's not what you said. You said:

Let's be honest, there are plenty of people out there to whom these guys just became great candidates for employment.

Which could be taken no other way than that you really think employers are going to seek these guys out because they appear to be racist.

[naraht]

It is *entirely* possible that both the President of the University of Oklahoma and the National President of Sigma Alpha Epsilon may be found to have taken actions which will ultimately when everything legal is straightened out, be found to be overreactions.

*However*, for University of Oklahoma, even *if* the University is ultimately found to unreasonably broken the housing contracts both with OU SAE and with the individual brothers *and* to have unreasonably expelled the two students without investigations, it will still be *cheaper* for the University to have done so in terms of losses to the school in reputation.

*Similarly*, even if Sigma Alpha Epsilon ultimately decides at their convention to not revoke the charter, from a *reputation* standpoint, the kneejerk reaction probably was the best thing for the Fraternity.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by naraht

It is *entirely* possible that both the President of the University of Oklahoma and the National President of Sigma Alpha Epsilon may be found to have taken actions which will ultimately when everything legal is straightened out, be found to be overreactions.

The President of SAE (at least by law, I have no idea about any of SAE's internal machinations) shouldn't see any legal issues here. SAE is a private organization. The government doesn't guarantee you due process rights with regard to private entities.

As for Boren, he could give two craps about the Constitution here... and while that's probably something a lot of you support, but we can't say we have these rights unless we're willing to defend the worst of us. I anticipate the University will end up writing a check to someone if they file suit and it's not keeping Boren up nights.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm not sure that's enough to make someone racist...

Originally Posted by Kevin

Which could be taken no other way than that you really think employers are going to seek these guys out because they appear to be racist.

I think there are people who will seek these guys out as free speech martyrs.