E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Wow.

I'm all for conducting research but that is a bit strange.

What's strange? I send these for a living so maybe the fact that she looked it up is what's strange to you - I look this stuff up for other schools sometimes for funsies.

It's a really long survey though. I don't know why schools send out such long surveys. My undergrad did one that took me a half hour to fill out. I was annoyed.

ETA: I see their response rates were shitty - I struggle with getting people to respond, too. Getting people to take surveys is hard, especially when your sample population may be discouraged for some reason.

/nerd out.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by agzg

What's strange?

The Joe Paterno items and the survey length.

As for length, they may need to reconsider their survey design. It is difficult enough getting people to complete surveys no matter how many times you distribute them. Alma mater surveys sometimes include items about department and campus dynamics that can impact pride and involvement. There is no way to know the impact of things without conducting the research. That also applies to the Paterno items on this survey. Still seemed strange when I first read it.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

What's strange? I send these for a living so maybe the fact that she looked it up is what's strange to you - I look this stuff up for other schools sometimes for funsies.

StrategyOne has a fairly good reputation, but this questionnaire is kind of awkward - the choice of scales (particularly the Likert portion), the bins, and the wording of the single-sentence questions, and so on.

It makes me wonder what the design goals were, and who had final sign-off ... it seems geared toward some narrow outcomes.

ETA: I see their response rates were shitty - I struggle with getting people to respond, too. Getting people to take surveys is hard, especially when your sample population may be discouraged for some reason.

/nerd out.

A 12% response rate isn't really out of the ordinary for phone/email hybrid research - it's low-yield. They did not appear to take any measures to account for 'motivated pollers' in this research, and the 58% male split could well indicate a group with incentive to respond at a higher rate (it could also simply reflect the historically higher number of male students, as well - hard to know without the pool demo). Even if that's 'clean', the proximity to PSU's issues kind of dicks up your ability to claim randomness in the response population (particularly via email) - even in a hypothetical sense, we can imagine who would be most likely to respond: those who are more invested, or those who are most angry, skewing to the sides.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

No, you're right, you did not say it was unique (and for the record I never said that you had stated there were no other schools in the country that could compare to PSU, so I'm not sure where that's coming from),

I was responding to everyone collectively.

but this comment:

"My point is that basically the entire state IS Penn State.... But what I'm saying is that a huge chunk of Pennsylvanians live and breathe Penn State, even if they never attend the school. It is THE school in PA. That's not to say that other schools in PA aren't great or worth going to.. And I'm not saying Penn State is the best.. it's just that Penn State is a way of life for A LOT of people."

does come across that way. It sounds like you find it unusual at the very least, and the point being made to you by myself and others is that it isn't even all that unusual. The fact that you said it to support something als463 said and she has made several statements that have an even stronger "Penn State is a special snowflake" implication to them added further to this impression. If we misunderstood you, then I apologize, but since there were several of us who misunderstood you, then I think you should consider that in the context of the thread, what you said came across in a way you didn't intend.

I'm not sure how what I said came across as, "LSU, Nebraska, Bama, etc. students and alumni don't have as much pride in their school as PSU".. but ok. If that's how you interpreted it, then that's how you interpreted it.

My point was simply that Penn State has a huge, loyal student/alumni population, which stretches even beyond the borders of PA, and will always be loyal to the school, regardless of what happened.

And agreeing with ONE statement that als463 made shouldn't automatically make me one of the Penn State crazies. I know, just as well as everyone else here, that she is ALL ABOUT Penn State, and can take things to the extreme when it comes to our alma mater. (Sorry als, but it's true)

als463's response was to something I said to 33girl concerning the likelihood that football players with ties to Penn State would forego scholarships to other schools in order to play without a scholarship to Penn State, but her response had to do with her view that parents whose kids (any kids -not limited to football plalyers) had scholarships to other schools might still send them to Penn State. I don't disagree with her view on that - it just had nothing to do with my response to 33girl which strictly dealt with football players, so her comment wasn't really relevant.

I'm not sure how it wasn't relevant.. but ok.

I also never said that EVERY parent of a football player would turn their child away from playing at PSU and never assumed any such thing. As a matter of fact I stated that some parents under some conditions might encourage their boys to do that, but I mentioned several reasons why I didn't think it was likely that many would (for one thing I don't think there would be many who fit that criteria to begin with).

You didn't say this earlier, so... I was under the impression that however I interpreted your statement was correct.

Again, I understand that we probably did completely misunderstand you, but I hope you understand why you were misunderstood.

And I hope you understand why you were misunderstood, as well. The funny thing is, I think people read others' comments here and somehow turned it into something I said.

Oh well. This is why I generally stay away from saying my piece about this whole situation. It only causes issues.

But whatever, it's over and done with. No hard feelings.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

The Joe Paterno items and the survey length.

As for length, they may need to reconsider their survey design. It is difficult enough getting people to complete surveys no matter how many times you distribute them. Alma mater surveys sometimes include items about department and campus dynamics that can impact pride and involvement. There is no way to know the impact of things without conducting the research. That also applies to the Paterno items on this survey. Still seemed strange when I first read it.

Yeah, that was the point I found weird, too. I thought you were saying it was weird that someone posted it here ("doing your research" v. actually doing research).

Alumni surveys are frustrating. And college campuses shouldn't be asking questions of alumni relating to departments beyond career services/alumni relations although I understand why in this case they included those. But their scales are... Well... Not usual.

My undergrad asked about Admissions. What the flippty what?

Originally Posted by KSig RC

StrategyOne has a fairly good reputation, but this questionnaire is kind of awkward - the choice of scales (particularly the Likert portion), the bins, and the wording of the single-sentence questions, and so on.

It makes me wonder what the design goals were, and who had final sign-off ... it seems geared toward some narrow outcomes.



A 12% response rate isn't really out of the ordinary for phone/email hybrid research - it's low-yield. They did not appear to take any measures to account for 'motivated pollers' in this research, and the 58% male split could well indicate a group with incentive to respond at a higher rate (it could also simply reflect the historically higher number of male students, as well - hard to know without the pool demo). Even if that's 'clean', the proximity to PSU's issues kind of dicks up your ability to claim randomness in the response population (particularly via email) - even in a hypothetical sense, we can imagine who would be most likely to respond: those who are more invested, or those who are most angry, skewing to the sides.

I bet campus leadership was heavily involved in the design. My surveys always get the most frustrating when senior leadership freaks and gets handsy. Why else would they have multiple categories that were essentially the same thing?

Were it a normal Alumni Survey I'd say 12% was fine, but given the proximity of the controversy, it's tricky.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I was responding to everyone collectively.

And I have been responding to several Penn State posters collectively as well, so please understand that many of the things I said that I think you felt were directed at you - were not.



I'm not sure how what I said came across as, "LSU, Nebraska, Bama, etc. students and alumni don't have as much pride in their school as PSU".. but ok. If that's how you interpreted it, then that's how you interpreted it.

This is not at all how I interpreted what you said. I don't think you were suggesting that Penn State alums had more pride in their school than other schools. I think that the way you previously stated this:

My point was simply that Penn State has a huge, loyal student/alumni population, which stretches even beyond the borders of PA, and will always be loyal to the school, regardless of what happened.

suggested that this a rare condition that doesn't exist in other states for other schools. I think the point that myself and several other posters have tried to make is that it not only isn't unique (which, I know, is not what you meant), it isn't even rare or unusual (and I do think it suggests that). If you feel it doesn't - all I can say is that I'm not the only one who read it that way.

This statement is actually

And agreeing with ONE statement that als463 made shouldn't automatically make me one of the Penn State crazies. I know, just as well as everyone else here, that she is ALL ABOUT Penn State, and can take things to the extreme when it comes to our alma mater. (Sorry als, but it's true)

I stated specifically that I thought you had been pretty even-handed about the whole thing, so I'm not sure why you feel I've lumped you in with the crazies- I don't think that at all. For that matter, I don't think anyone's been crazy. I think als463 has, as you stated, been a little extreme in her Penn State viewpoints, but it isn't just that you agreed with one statement. It's that you agreed with that one statement and and then went on to state something that sounded very similar to some of her sentiments. Again, if you didn't intend it that way - I'm sorry we took it that way, but that's why (meaning me and a few others) we took it that way.



I'm not sure how it wasn't relevant.. but ok.

Because there are many factors that govern a Division I scholarship level football player school decisions that don't come into play for a typical student and might have a lot to do with their future money making potential which runs into the millions. A parent with a non-football playing student who gives up a scholarship to go to Penn State isn't, in my opinion, facing sacrifices and decisions that are even remotely similar to those a football player would make to give up another scholarship and go to Penn State AND face the football sanctions on top of that, so the two situations are not comparable.

You didn't say this earlier, so... I was under the impression that however I interpreted your statement was correct.


If you go back and look at my posts on the topic, I said I thought it was unlikely and that there would be few who would do it. I didn't say none would ever do it, and I stated the very limited circumstances under which a parent and their son might want to do it.


And I hope you understand why you were misunderstood, as well. The funny thing is, I think people read others' comments here and somehow turned it into something I said.

Yes, I do understand that. In fact, as I said, I was commenting on the posts of several people on here at one time, so I think there were posts that you thought were referring to something you said, when very little of it was directed at you, so I apologize if you interpreted it that way....most of my harsher comments were not connected to anything you said.

Oh well. This is why I generally stay away from saying my piece about this whole situation. It only causes issues.

But whatever, it's over and done with. No hard feelings.

None here either.

[ASTalumna06]

I was tempted to comment again..

But I won't. It's over.

I'm jusping over to another thread that has nothing to do with Penn State.

::flounce::

[DrPhil]

The Paterno items on the longass survey are still a bit strange. Perhaps necessary. Still strange. If I was given a longass survey, I would want them to get straight to the point. When they finally got to the Paterno items, I would be like "oh, THAT is what this is about...you don't have to waste my time to ask whether the Paterno stuff has made me drop Penn State."

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I was tempted to comment again..

But I won't. It's over.

I'm jusping over to another thread that has nothing to do with Penn State.

::flounce::

I'm disappointed in you. Flouncing?! How dare you!!

[KSig RC]

Think about it like this: why would the school only poll alumni?

What would be gained by getting this information - and why would that be a better use of (estimate) $50k for this type of study than simply doing a statistically-valid study of the nation at large? Is there any useful way for the Board or administration to integrate what they've learned (again, only about alumni)?

It smacks of onanism.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Think about it like this: why would the school only poll alumni?

So they can get a sense as to whether or not their fundraising would be affected? Also, we don't know that they didn't or don't intend to poll current students and/or recent graduates on the same issue - alumni survey results are more likely to be made public than graduate or student surveys.

I don't have issues with alumni surveys - in some cases it's an accreditor requirement. For non-profit and public institutions it's a good way to know where you stand with your largest pool of donors.

[DrPhil]

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I'm disappointed in you. Flouncing?! How dare you!!

Hey, you have no room to talk DrPh'lounce. Besides, I'm too busy taking the longest survey in the world to bother with a silly thread like this!


Seriously, though... I stopped reading that survey halfway through it. Ridiculously long and drawn out. And trying to line up all the results and comprehend what exactly all of it means was giving me a headache.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Hey, you have no room to talk DrPh'lounce.

LOL. You are evil.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Besides, I'm too busy taking the longest survey in the world to bother with a silly thread like this!


Seriously, though... I stopped reading that survey halfway through it. Ridiculously long and drawn out. And trying to line up all the results and comprehend what exactly all of it means was giving me a headache.

Survey FAIL?

Can I type that without you Penn Staters attacking and saying that Penn State surveys are some unique misunderstood misrepresented beast?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So onanism.

[33girl]

OK, asking this because I think this is what a lot of PA people were trying to say. Aren't there big rivalries in some of the states mentioned, like Alabama/Auburn, Georgia/Georgia State and Kansas/K-State with people being pretty evenly divided? Not just in sports, but admissions and loyalty and devotion to the school. There's no "Penn State/Penn" rivalry. And the Pitt/Penn State rivalry pretty much died when PSU entered the Big XII. It's still around, but not nearly what it used to be (i.e. when you couldn't wear the other school's shirts on campus).

This is what a lot of people in PA are meaning when they say they think that it's different.