Hazing -- Good or bad?

[Tom Earp]

Yes, I do beleive in many of the things that are now considereded hazing, it is up to each of our GLOs to make the definition of what is and what isnt.

1. Do I beleive in study times! Yes. That is why people went to college isnt it?

2. Do I beleive in having New Associates learn about the Local and The National GLO? Yes. If they do not know, then they are just a club with Greek Letters.

3. Do I beleive in New Associates working as a group. Yes. They in the near future going to have to know who will be dependable and keep the Chapter growing and fruitful.

4. Do I beleive in mentaly or physicaly inflicting of pain on a New Associate. No!

But, this again goes back to what each of our GLOs think and have polociies doesn't it?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Buttonz

So causing someone emotional or physically distress is a good thing? Please, explain to me houw

I never said it was. You just have a very narrow minded view of what hazing is.

[Buttonz]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I never said it was. You just have a very narrow minded view of what hazing is.

LOok up the definitation of hazing.

Things like making your pledge class know about the actives, the national and local history, etc is pledge training, not hazing.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Buttonz

LOok up the definitation of hazing.

Things like making your pledge class know about the actives, the national and local history, etc is pledge training, not hazing.

I would imagine it would depend on the GLO wouldn't it?

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Please explain to me how making pledges wear nice clothes, making them get to know every member on a personal level, making them learn fraternity knowledge, making them study, making them respect their house, and putting them in situations where they must learn to depend on their pledge and build some close bonds/trust is a BAD THING??

Nice clothes: Are brothers expected to dress the same way? Or do they just dress nicely as pledges and then they get to be slobs? And, what is the point of having new members dress nicely if pledges don't? The majority of the men in a fraternity are initiated members and they will be the ones who set the standard for the fraternity as a whole. If you want them to be seen as gentleman who present themselves well, then why would that only happen while they are pledges? If it is an expectation for all members, then it isn't hazing.

Making them get to know every member on a personal level: Are the initiated members open and willing to let them get to know them? Why is this only accomplished via interviews? Wouldn't this be better accomplished by arranging for different groups of members and pledges to eat lunch together in a student center once a week or something? In my day, we did have to interview every member, but I REALLY got to know my sisters just from hanging out with them, not from an interview. I really liked them, so I wanted to hang out with them. I selected them because I liked and respected them and that's why they chose to give me a bid. And, there were always a few members who just didn't make themselves available or were too busy to meet with every new member for an interview. If you have members who aren't available or who make a pledge do outrageous things in order to "earn" an interview, or if there is "punishment" for not getting a few of the interviews done, that can lead to problems.

Fraternity knowledge: I don't think anybody believes that learning real fraternity history is hazing. Drilling someone at 3 am when they are sleep deprived, calling them names, making them do shots when they don't know some insignificant fact about a brother who was around 10 years ago.. that's a problem. Learning about fraternity structure and history isn't considered hazing.

Making them study: Isn't everybody expected to study in college?

Making them respect the house and members: Respect breeds respect. Initiated members set the tone. If they respect the house and their brothers, this shouldn't be an issue. If someone is disrespectful, don't initiate them. It's that simple. If initiated members trash the house purposely so that pledges have a huge mess to clean up in order to breed respect, then you're demonstrating a double standard of "respect the house until you live there, then trash it".

Depending on pledge brothers/trust/etc: Again, wouldn't this occur from the role models that your members are? It seems to me that it's up to the initiated members of any group to demonstrate this by supporting each other (helping a brother who is having a family issue, academic problems, etc), using team work to accomplish goals (such as getting a philanthropy project off the ground), etc. And, why do you want them to only have that with each other? Don't you want them working with the whole chapter that way?

And, if you aren't doing the things I pointed out as negative, then why do you call it hazing? And, why give a bid to someone who you don't want as a member just the way they are? Why bid someone whose character you have to rebuild to make them a functional productive member? Fraternities have even more leeway with this than sororities do. They have more time to get to their know their potential members in a different type of setting. So, why not wait until you are pretty sure that they'd be a good member before inviting them to membership?

[Tom Earp]

Your many good points should be heeded as a good point to concentrate on!

I could not agree with you more on all of your points.

Dress like slobs, then the perception will be the same. I have often told my members, wear your letters proudly. Why wear Bud/Busch/Coors, etc. and not make a statement of who you are for others to see.

But cookie cutting dress makes a Fraternity look like just that.

Learning the Chapter and National History is a must or just be a club of wanna be members of a Group.

Treat the new associates as you want to be treated and show them they were good enough because you selected them.

If Active members treat them like crap, they will continually do it and finally it will catch up with them.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Buttonz

LOok up the definitation of hazing.

Things like making your pledge class know about the actives, the national and local history, etc is pledge training, not hazing.

I'm just giving some examples of some things that I think are necessary.....obviously i'm not going to sit here and tell everyone everything about what we do. I know the difference between pledge training and hazing. You can haze pledges without it being dangerous and emotionally distressing.

[Tom Earp]

True, but doesnt it depend a lot on what your IHQ poliicy states?

I think many of agree on many points, but once again it goes to IHQ.

[DSTCHAOS]

Circles.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

True, but doesnt it depend a lot on what your IHQ poliicy states?

I think many of agree on many points, but once again it goes to IHQ.

Do you honestly think most fraternities today go by what their national's state?

[Tom Earp]

Yes and no.

If yes, they have no problems.

If no, then there could be repercussions from HQs.

Please do not ever think that GLOs are not taken off of campuses.
Example:
Sigma Nu, Un. Kansas.
Lambda Chi Alpha, Un. Mo. , Un. Arkansas, Un. Cal-Berkley.

Many at Un. Co.


This is just to name a few that I know of and there have been many more.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Yes and no.

If yes, they have no problems.

If no, then there could be repercussions from HQs.

Please do not ever think that GLOs are not taken off of campuses.
Example:
Sigma Nu, Un. Kansas.
Lambda Chi Alpha, Un. Mo. , Un. Arkansas, Un. Cal-Berkley.

Many at Un. Co.


This is just to name a few that I know of and there have been many more.

I never said GLO's weren't taken off of campuses.

[jyhad1906]

Members join fraternities, but brothers pledge fraternities. My letters were not purchased i earned them. At the rate things are going freshmen will just go to the books store the day before class and pick up their history book, english book, fraternity letters and be ready for the first day of class. I hated being on line but wouldn't have went any other way

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I'm just giving some examples of some things that I think are necessary.....obviously i'm not going to sit here and tell everyone everything about what we do. I know the difference between pledge training and hazing. You can haze pledges without it being dangerous and emotionally distressing.

I'll throw my two cents in here.
If you are comfortable with using the word "haze" to describe your brother/pledge interaction, I become concerned.

Having said that, I am not in any way advocating the no-stress instant membership that several inter/nationals espouse.

Where I do have concerns are around these issues:

1. The combination of alcohol and pledge events, especially "voluntary" mass consumption events.
2. Extreme physical conditions, whether it be pushups/situps etc, temperature manipulation, or extreme sleep deprevation.
3. Public events involving unusal clothing or activities expose the fraternity to ridicule.
4. Just from a practical standpoint, house maintenance programs based on pledges tend to have two results; the attitude of members tends to be that " I don't have to do any more work after I initiate" and that most chapters don't have pledges half the school year. Who cleans the house then?

Every event and action involving the pledge program should start with an agreement of what you want the the program to accomplish and then designing events that fulfill those needs. These events should be planned in the least dangerous way possible.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Making them get to know every member on a personal level: Are the initiated members open and willing to let them get to know them? Why is this only accomplished via interviews? Wouldn't this be better accomplished by arranging for different groups of members and pledges to eat lunch together in a student center once a week or something? In my day, we did have to interview every member, but I REALLY got to know my sisters just from hanging out with them, not from an interview. I really liked them, so I wanted to hang out with them. I selected them because I liked and respected them and that's why they chose to give me a bid. And, there were always a few members who just didn't make themselves available or were too busy to meet with every new member for an interview. If you have members who aren't available or who make a pledge do outrageous things in order to "earn" an interview, or if there is "punishment" for not getting a few of the interviews done, that can lead to problems.

Hanging out in group settings isn't always the best, especially for those who are shyer. Plus sometimes actives (especially seniors) don't come on to campus a lot except for class and to force them to, for example, go to the caf and sit with a bunch of pledges and actives to get to know the pledges just isn't feasible. Everyone has different schedules. I would have never gotten to know some of the seniors when I was pledging if I'd expected them to do that. But I'm glad I DID make the effort to go interview them. I think this is another reason why seniors become inactive sometimes - they get kind of tossed to the side if they can't do "group" things.

You're not supposed to know someone up and down the minute you finish your interview, but as busy as college students are, it's a lot easier to have things that are scheduled and open up a door to get to know someone that way than say "hang out with them, you'll get to know them eventually."

If there are members who don't want to be interviewed or are a-holes about giving their interview just to be a-holes, then that's another story. They should be disciplined, not the pledges.