Mormons won't stop baptizing dead Jews

[ASUADPi]

Originally posted by MysticCat81


Proxy baptism doesn't "force" anything, even if the Mormon understanding of it is accepted. Again, the Mormon belief is that the dead person must both accept the Gospel (as understood by the LDS) and be baptised in order to enter to "higher" levels of paradise. Proxy baptism satisfies the second requirement but not the first. So if Observant Mormon undergoes a proxy baptism for John Doe, who has been dead for 20 years, but John Doe, "on the other side," still does not "accept the Gospel," the proxy baptism alone has not done anything. Even under Mormon theology, the choice is still up to John Doe -- it's just that the fact that he was not baptised (according to Mormon rites) while on Earth is not an impediment should John Doe, after death, choose to "accept the Gospel." On the other hand, should John Doe "accept the Gospel" after death, that alone will not do him any good until a proxy baptism is performed for him. [/B]

This might sound like a really dumb question, but if they know what you just stated, why do they waste their time proxy baptizing people?

If they are baptizing the Jews who died in the Holocaust, one should expect that these people "on the other side" are not going the accept the gospel of any other religion. And I say this because thousands of Jews did convert at the true beginning of the Holocaust (this is prior to the move to the Ghettos and Death/Concentration camps, this is when the persecution was just starting). They knew that it was "easier" for them to move to a city where no one knew they were Jewish, convert, and then secretly pratice their Judiasm beliefs in private. With that said, there are the MILLIONS who refused to give up their beliefs and faith because that is who they were.

If these people were refusing to give up their beliefs and faith prior to the Holocaust and their untimely death, it seems quite arrogant of the Mormans to assume that they will suddenly "convert" in death. IMPO.

I'm not sure I'm making sense, I'm just trying to pull the historical context out.

As I usually say in highly contraversial situations; agree with me, disagree with me, please just respect my opinion.

[33girl]

I know some people have said not to let it bother them...but think about this point. I'm assuming that when these people are proxy baptized it is recorded somewhere in Mormon records. If this is seen by others, it makes it look like your ancestors supported or believed something they did not.

Imagine if a university did "proxy graduations" and all your life you knew your grandpa had gone to Harvard, only to see his name on an alum roster for DeVry (LOL). That ties his name with something he has no connection with, and peoples' names are still very important possessions.

You shouldn't be able to use someone's name to support something without their permission or their family's permission.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
This might sound like a really dumb question, but if they know what you just stated, why do they waste their time proxy baptizing people?

If they are baptizing the Jews who died in the Holocaust, one should expect that these people "on the other side" are not going the accept the gospel of any other religion.

Looking at it from a Mormon point of view, once the person has died, they would realize what the afterlife is really like and would see that, if they want to ascend to the higher levels of the afterlife, they must respond favorably to the preaching of the Gospel that they will encounter in the afterlife.

FWIW, a quick overview of the afterlife as understood by Mormons:

After death, believers go to Paradise, unbelievers to Spirit Prison. Missionaries will leave Paradise to preach the Gospel in Spirit Prison. If the people in Spirit Prison respond positively to this preaching and repent of their sins, they can go to Paradise as Mormons if a proxy has been baptised for them.

At the end of the world, those who rebelled against Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal life (according to Mormon belief, everyone was a pre-mortal spirit child prior to birth) will be "cast out" and everyone else will progress to one of three levels of glory:

-- The Telestial Kingdom is for those who lived spiritually average lives (or worse). The Telestial Kingdom will be better than Earth, but not as good as the other two kingdoms.

-- The Terrestrial Kingdom is for virtuous unbelievers, as well as Mormons who "know the truth" but haven't lived it.

-- The Celestial Kingdom is for good and faithful Mormons. This Kingdom also has three levels; those in the highest level, whose marriages must have been "sealed" in a Mormon Temple (Temple Marriages can also be sealed by proxy), will be joined by their families and can beget their own spirit children and organize their own worlds, of which they will be gods.

And just for the record: I don't believe it, I'm just trying to explain it.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by 33girl
I know some people have said not to let it bother them...but think about this point. I'm assuming that when these people are proxy baptized it is recorded somewhere in Mormon records. If this is seen by others, it makes it look like your ancestors supported or believed something they did not.

Although I don't know for sure, my guess is that such records are only kept at the Temples. Since only Mormons in good standing can enter a Temple, the risk of "outsiders" seeing them would seem small. I'm sure it would also indicate that it was a proxy baptism, which would make clear that the person didn't do it him- or herself.

ETA: The article at the head of the thread makes references to a record or a proxy baptism being found, so perhaps they are not kept at the Temple only, but that reference also would suggest that it is clear that it was a proxy baptism.

[Private I]

33girl just explained my other problem with this, giving the example of proxy graduations...

for instance, what if somewhere down the line, the only records of people are Mormon records, and it would show me as being a Mormon, and I am not? re-writing history=not rock n roll....

[valkyrie]

It's time for Congress to act on this matter. They should do something like this:

Legislation Details

:109

State: Federal
Bill Number: S.121
Sponsor: Sen. Choy (D-AK)
Last sponsor date: Apr. 08, 2005

Official Title as Introduced: "To ensure that the right of an individual to move on to the hereafter according to his or her own religious belifs or lack thereof free from the intervention of misguided religious zealots."

Summary
4/4/2005--Introduced. Freedom from Tortious Baptism Act of 2005 - States that a deceased person who is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Baha'i, Sikh, Atheist, Pagan, Agnostic, Scientologist, Religiously Confused or Otherwise Undecided, Jain, or any other faith or lack of faith other than Mormon, may be free from unauthorized post-death baptism by Mormons. States that nothing in this act shall be considered to permit any Mormon to baptize anyone living or deceased who has not expressly consented to be so baptized or in any manner that is inconsistent with: (1) Federal law or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper procedures for consensual baptism; or (2) any reasonable restrictions promulgated by individual states pertaining to the time, place, or manner of conducting consensual baptism on willing adults or children with the consent of said children's parents. Prohibits sale or disclosure of death records by an individual or institution to a non-relative of the deceased who does not have a viable non-baptismal interest in said records. Prohibits a hospital, funeral home, mortuary or other institution from releasing personally identifiable information to unrelated Mormons. Amends the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act to make limitations on the transferability and to increase confidentiality of death records and information related to the deceased's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Sets forth a scheme for awarding compensatory and punitive damages as a result of a tortious baptism performed on a deceased family member.

Sponsor/Co-sponsor(s) 48

Apr. 09, 2005 Referred to the Senate Committee of the Judiciary.

[Rudey]

I am not about to sell out my people for the lousy ability to do a genealogical search. In fact if I wanted to do such research, Jewish records are pretty well kept in modern history (they had to be as a result of the holocaust).

I don't want my records even looked at by these nut jobs. They have a right to practice their faith but I have a right to privacy concerning my records including birth certificates and the right not to be stalked into the after-life.

There is also a big difference between what is legal and what is moral. Quite a few business scandals were legal but not moral and the courts still stepped in. The current crisis with AIG insurance group comes to mind. I'm sure that side-stepping the legal and moral is a norm given their desire for polygamy in this country with extremely under-aged minors and it isn't going to stop when it comes to baptizing Jews.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Private I
33girl just explained my other problem with this, giving the example of proxy graduations...

for instance, what if somewhere down the line, the only records of people are Mormon records, and it would show me as being a Mormon, and I am not? re-writing history=not rock n roll....

Hey tabloid papers create fake news and history all the time and are sued.

-Rudey

[honeychile]

Originally posted by 33girl
I know some people have said not to let it bother them...but think about this point. I'm assuming that when these people are proxy baptized it is recorded somewhere in Mormon records. If this is seen by others, it makes it look like your ancestors supported or believed something they did not.

Imagine if a university did "proxy graduations" and all your life you knew your grandpa had gone to Harvard, only to see his name on an alum roster for DeVry (LOL). That ties his name with something he has no connection with, and peoples' names are still very important possessions.

You shouldn't be able to use someone's name to support something without their permission or their family's permission.

You would have to be seriously into genealogy, and using LDS forms in order for you to know if your ancestor was "sealed" or not. There's usually an X in the one box to signify that a birth or marriage has been sealed.

And I do agree that the family should be asked first, but let me ask this: we're talking about records from the 1600's and earlier in many cases. What family are you going to contact?

[33girl]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
After death, believers go to Paradise, unbelievers to Spirit Prison.

Spirit Prison sounds like it should be a song by Warrant or Britny Fox.

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
You can feel free to get upset over whatever you want. I just don't see the point.

No offense but what if their religious beliefs are wrong and a baptism sends someone to hell or keeps us from entering the afterlife as we see it? Wouldn't that just piss you off a tad? I don't force my beliefs on other people and they shoul not be doing rituals on me. It is a violation of my dead rights.

However, I guess if you're lying there dead, you wouldn't care what happens to your body cause there is no point in getting upset. Give my regards to all the necrophilias that may violate your rotting corpse...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RUgreek
However, I guess if you're lying there dead, you wouldn't care what happens to your body cause there is no point in getting upset. Give my regards to all the necrophilias that may violate your rotting corpse...

I suppose if she was upset that would mean she believed the teaching of necrophiliacs and it wouldn't make sense to give them credence. I think they can do as they wish now. She can be upset but some might not see the point in it.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by RACooper
While you see it from a non-religious perspective there are those of us that cannot divorce our faith from our religious convictions.

Many people here on GC find the concept of being told what and how to think or believe repelent - and rightly so. These pathetic tools are challenging/robbing/ignoring/disrespectring Jews (and others) of both their historical and religious beliefs... all in the name of a arrogant disregard for others and their beliefs - it passes beyond "good taste" and becomes insulting to a faith belief system...

It saddens me that these "people" have taken it upon themselves to assume that they are the final arbitor of what is the correct faith - and then force that belief upon others, in life and in death... this even surpases the decidely criminal actions of my own Church (Catholic) during the Crusades - at least the Catholic Church allowed the dead to remain true to their faith. These assholes haven't even afforded the dead that....

Now to put this in context - if they are determined to "baptize" Jews who have died... does that mean that they are "baptizing" Jews that died during the Holocaust? I'd hope that no one thinks that that is even remotelt acceptable - even a proxy baptisim insults the faith of those that died for their faith and those that died as firm believers.

Personally I'm looking into this here in Canada - if the Mormons are participating in this reprehensible act I will be more than happy to lend my voice to those advocating that the 'church' be charge for violating the tenents, if not the legality, of the freedom and respect of religious freedom here.

By "seeing this from a non-religious perspective," I meant that I am not a religious person.

The Mormons are NOT actually converting these people. In order to convert to Mormonism, there are two steps: you need to actively make a choice to accept it, and you need to be baptized. Mormons believe that the first step -- choosing to become Mormon -- can be done after death, when a person is in heaven. They believe that baptism can only occur on earth, either by real baptism or by proxy. Thus conversion is not the issue here -- Mormons just feel that, by baptizing this people, they are preparing them for the act of conversion. Baptism itself is not conversion, however.

In response to ASUADPi -- Mormons believe that their view of heaven is the only correct one. They assume that, even if you were another religious faith on earth and you were devoted enough to die for that faith -- if you get to heaven and you were wrong and God really is Mormon, you'd convert.


Proxy baptisms are recorded as proxy baptisms, not as actual baptisms.

RUGreek -- did you even read this thread? Baptism is different from conversion. There's no way this practice could send anybody to hell (or heaven) by itself. Conversion cannot take place without the person (or whatever they are after death) does not accept Mormonism as truth. Which, uh, if they're Jewish, they probably won't. Thus why this is a non-issue to me.

[Rudey]

What RUGreek wrote still stands.

You say Jews don't "accept Mormonism as truth...thus why this is a non-issue to [you]."

He says You don't accept necrophiliacs thus a necrophiliac having sex with your dead body is a non-issue to others.

-Rudey
--By the way this is an issue for Jews regarding Mormon acts...not about you.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
By "seeing this from a non-religious perspective," I meant that I am not a religious person.

The Mormons are NOT actually converting these people. In order to convert to Mormonism, there are two steps: you need to actively make a choice to accept it, and you need to be baptized. Mormons believe that the first step -- choosing to become Mormon -- can be done after death, when a person is in heaven. They believe that baptism can only occur on earth, either by real baptism or by proxy. Thus conversion is not the issue here -- Mormons just feel that, by baptizing this people, they are preparing them for the act of conversion. Baptism itself is not conversion, however.

In response to ASUADPi -- Mormons believe that their view of heaven is the only correct one. They assume that, even if you were another religious faith on earth and you were devoted enough to die for that faith -- if you get to heaven and you were wrong and God really is Mormon, you'd convert.


Proxy baptisms are recorded as proxy baptisms, not as actual baptisms.

RUGreek -- did you even read this thread? Baptism is different from conversion. There's no way this practice could send anybody to hell (or heaven) by itself. Conversion cannot take place without the person (or whatever they are after death) does not accept Mormonism as truth. Which, uh, if they're Jewish, they probably won't. Thus why this is a non-issue to me.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Rudey
What RUGreek wrote still stands.

You say Jews don't "accept Mormonism as truth...thus why this is a non-issue to [you]."

He says You don't accept necrophiliacs thus a necrophiliac having sex with your dead body is a non-issue to others.

-Rudey

To be honest, that's a non-issue to me as well. (In more ways than one, since I plan to be cremated and my body's not going to lying around waiting to be violated by freaks.) I don't really care what happens to my body after my death. I'm not going to be conscious of it, I'm not going to be experiencing it, why do I care?


For the record, if Mormons want to baptize me by proxy, they can go ahead.