any "nice" conservatives out there?

Originally posted by moe.ron
Let ask you ADPiZXalum, is evertything in this quote factually correct?

No, that reasoning actually does not necessarily make sense. I was talking about some quotes that she used by founding fathers. I know that doesn't make us a Christian nation per se, but it does indicate what some of their personal beliefs were. I am a Christian as well as many others on this board, and I know that doesn't make this board a Christian board, that's ridiculous. I understand whoever made the point about those being out of context in the sense that their personal beliefs don't necessarily mirror their actions in the foundation of the country. But how are they not factual?

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

William Penn

"Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

Even liberal Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:

"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... .. a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."

Washington also said:

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

"It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible."

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all the religion of Jesus Christ." to a group of Indian chiefs.

Thomas Jefferson, the man "blamed" for the wall of separation between church and state said:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Abraham Lincoln:

"Unless the great God who assisted [President Washington], shall be with me and aid me, I must fail. But if the same omniscient mind, and Almighty arm, that directed and protected him, shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."

Teddy Roosevelt:

"In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade."

Yes, I googled "christian nation." I also "cut and paste" so as not to make any grammatical errors.

I have enjoyed this thread and I hope everyone has had a wonderful time. I am going back to the shooting range to practice and to the bible to study. I am sure I will see all of the gc names again soon.

The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine


Apparently they couldn't come to any conclusions on that whole "Christian nation" thing . . .

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
No, that reasoning actually does not necessarily make sense. I was talking about some quotes that she used by founding fathers. I know that doesn't make us a Christian nation per se, but it does indicate what some of their personal beliefs were. I am a Christian as well as many others on this board, and I know that doesn't make this board a Christian board, that's ridiculous. I understand whoever made the point about those being out of context in the sense that their personal beliefs don't necessarily mirror their actions in the foundation of the country. But how are they not factual?

I didn't even touch on the whole religious debate. To be honest, I would not care less. Her assertaion and evidence is ignorant at best, down right stupidity at worst. She needs to take remedial class in research methadology because if she ever take a class with my old professors, they would fail her on the spot. Nothing to do with her philosophy, it has to do with using incorrect facts to cover up her assertation that no other religions are allowed in predominantly Muslim nation, anywhere in the world.

Yes, many of us are being hard on her. It has more to do with teaching her how to compile a hypothesis that the professor can appreciate and she can get good grades. Trust me, our lessons are cheaper than going to a class, failing it and taking it over.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson, who at best can be described as a deist, also "re-wrote" the Gospels, if you'll recall. he removed all of the "irrelevant" and "unbelievable" parts -- meaning those parts that would suggest the divinity of Jesus.

I have found that often times, the "quotes of the founding fathers" pulled from the Internet should be accepted with a great deal of scepticism. Sometimes such quotes may be real, but other times the "quote" cannot be traced back further than the 1950's and has taken on a life of its own on the Internet.

[kddani]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Jefferson, who at best can be described as a deist, also "re-wrote" the Gospels, if you'll recall. he removed all of the "irrelevant" and "unbelievable" parts -- meaning those parts that would suggest the divinity of Jesus.

I have found that often times, the "quotes of the founding fathers" pulled from the Internet should be accepted with a great deal of scepticism. Sometimes such quotes may be real, but other times the "quote" cannot be traced back further than the 1950's and has taken on a life of its own on the Internet.

I think sugar and spice's post was a great example of that. Anyone can pull a quote off the internet, and quote it out of context, both textual context and historical context.

You can find quotes to support anything you want to see. But quotes aren't really hard evidence.

If you want to know the intent of the founders, you'd need much more extensive research. Just as in the law when the courts look at a law to determine what the statutory intent was, they look at it from a much bigger context than a isolated, out of context quote.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Nothing to do with her philosophy, it has to do with using incorrect facts to cover up her assertation that no other religions are allowed in predominantly Muslim nation, anywhere in the world.

Did she say all Muslim nations throughout the world or did she mention just a couple like Iran?

This thread should be locked. You're all just going around insulting each other and Moe.ron usually locks up these types of threads earlier on.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by kddani


If you want to know the intent of the founders, you'd need much more extensive research. Just as in the law when the courts look at a law to determine what the statutory intent was, they look at it from a much bigger context than a isolated, out of context quote.

Well, to me it's clear that, as nowhere in any of our founding documents does it say or even imply that the U.S. is intended to be a Christian nation, our founders as a whole decided that it was best that this country should not be a Christian nation. But maybe that's a leap.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
Did she say all Muslim nations throughout the world or did she mention just a couple like Iran?

Her exact quote:

all of the Muslim nations do not have freedom of religion

[kddani]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Well, to me it's clear that, as nowhere in any of our founding documents does it say or even imply that the U.S. is intended to be a Christian nation, our founders as a whole decided that it was best that this country should not be a Christian nation. But maybe that's a leap.

Oh, I certainly agree with you.

And it's much easier to prove that something IS something than proving something IS NOT something.

So, if indeed the US was founded as a Christian nation, then certainly there would be an abundance of documents and other evidence to support that. So far none have been found by anyone here!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

And, as a quick lesson for Conniebama, here is why you need to GIVE CITATIONS and keep context in mind.

This quote comes from the following letter written by Adams:



Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it!!!" But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell. So far from believing in the total and universal depravity of human Nature; I believe there is no Individual totally depraved. The most abandoned Scoundrel that ever existed, never Yet Wholly extinguished his Conscience, and while Conscience remains there is some Religion. Popes, Jesuits and Sorbonists and Inquisitors have some Conscience and some Religion. So had Marius and Sylla, Caesar Cataline and Anthony, an Augustus had not much more, let Virgil and Horace say what they will.

(Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817 -- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed., Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254; The Adams Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited by Lester J. Cappon, University of North Carolina Press (1959, 1987) p.509)


This letter was part of a series of such letters between Jefferson and Adams, in which Adams spoke largely of his views on Christianity and Jefferson spoke of his disillusionment with organized religions. Note the date - this quotation is from 40 years after the framing of the Declaration of Independence and 30 years after the Constitution, making it wholly irrelevant when commenting on the frame of mind of the framers with regard to the nation's founding.

Here's a hint, Connie - many of your quotations have similar endemic flaws. This is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine


Apparently they couldn't come to any conclusions on that whole "Christian nation" thing . . .

Which is why I said that we can't assume that because SOME of the founders were Christians, the entire nation was meant to be.

[ADPi Conniebama]

I really don't understand what all or your problems are with living in a Christian nation. No, it doesn’t have to be in the Constitution to be factual. The truth is most of our nations forefathers were Christians (Presbyterians, Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc) And the constitution proved it with all of the freedoms and liberties that they knew at the time a nation would need in accordance with the BIBLE.

The reason why I keep waiting so long to reply is because I am getting bombarded with questions and statements, to which I felt I needed to respond. I do live in the real world and in the real world the rest of all of the countries in this world see the United States of America as a Christian nation. Just because we are a Christian nation doesn’t mean we . . . . Never-mind I was about to explain my original point again and I have decided that it would be a waste of my time.

I am sure ya’ll all lead happy and successful lives, but if you choose to allow one small statement that someone says over the internet get you this upset then ya’ll need to get a life. It is not your place to put me in my place (or attempt to) it is your place to sit there and read a post and agree or disagree with a statement. However, what you do from there defines your character on greek chat or anywhere.

If you choose to deny the Christian Heritage of this nation go for it. I will come back to read posts when I choose and if anyone else says anything remotely interesting I will respond otherwise have a wonderful week.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I really don't understand what all or your problems are with living in a Christian nation. . . .
If you choose to deny the Christian Heritage of this nation go for it.

You're saying two different things here -- Christian nation and Christian heritage. The USA undeniably has a Christian heritage in that (1) the majority of its citizens have always been and (for now, at least) continue to be Christian, and (2) the values of those citizens have inevitably shaped national policy and national culture.

But this is not a "Christian nation" for the simple reason that, unlike in many European countries, no form of Christianity is established by law as the national or established religion. It's that simple.

[ADPi Conniebama]

I am not denying the "Establishment Clause."

[Rudey]

Let me summarize:

1) This thread was ridiculous in even its topic - it created a foundation that conservatives are "un-nice" and that the thread creator is out to look for the "nice" ones.

2) The United States does not have an official religion or language, but its history has really made it quite evident how much Christianity has played a role through every Great Awakening (supposedly we're in the midst of the 4th).

Did I cover everything? Is everyone happy?

-Rudey