Dear Abby today - Page 2

SirHornyToad · #1 11-30-2004, 02:34 AM

I think the more important question is why the hell did the frat guys let her stay? at my house if we new/found out/were suspcious that a girl was under 18 she'd be out the door quick.

Also I'd be interested to know how the "no" was said. Was it said playfully and on the third try she said "oh alright" for all we know if she was that drunk maybe she didn't say no at all, maybe she just felt guilty or someshit the next morning. Maybe she had been seeing that guy for a while and got pissed and decided to do something crazy because she may in fact be crazy. I'm not insensitive to rape, BUT something about this story sounds a little too much like an after school special and a little too drama queen for me.

I think from the evidence presented in this I would say that the two main mistakes were 1. Letting her in/stay and 2. giving her booze. As far as the rape goes I wouldn't take it for its word right off the bat.

Free Kobe !

ADqtPiMel · #2 11-30-2004, 02:46 AM

I went to tons of college parties when I was in high school. I don't really think my parents are idiots for not realizing where I was. Kids can be really sneaky.

No blame for a rape can be placed anywhere but on the rapist.

tunatartare · #3 11-30-2004, 02:46 AM

I agree with GeekyPenguin. No means no. Legally, even if the girl says yes to everything else and says no to sex, it's rape. Especially since she's a minor. I forgot the exact percentage, but I remember at Take Back the Night when they were saying how a large percentage of rape victims know their attackers.

Nikki_DZ · #4 11-30-2004, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom Earp
33 and georgiagirls, absolutly, just what the hell was She doing there and even out on the streets with her mother not knowing where she was.

Wonder if she had all of the toilet paper in her bra giving her bigger boobies like Dean Wormers daughter did?

Help, I have been raped when she spread her legs and got layed (?) and scared!

Wowza. That's potentially one of the most sexist, chauvinistic, offensive comments I've ever read. Add that one to the Earp hall of fame.

Fact is, we DON'T know if the girl was raped. All we have is her word. And, being the fact that I work with female survivors of domestic violence (which, believe it or not, does include MARITAL RAPE) I'm inclined to believe her. Sure, we all hear about the "girl who cried rape". But, in reality, that occurs a very small fraction of the time (a study I read stated that the FBI crime statistics showed false rape reporting occured in 2% of cases, though it has been acknowledged that this number does fluctuate according to various reports, 2% being the lowest I've seen, and 8.6% being the highest).

What was she doing at a frat house? Why did her mother "let" her go? Why was she drinking? WHAT DOES IT MATTER? Let's all think back to when we were 16. I don't know about you, but I went to fraternity parties. My mom knew I was going, too (my boyfriend was a member of the house). Even if she didn't-have you ever tried to tell a 16 year old no? Rarely works-they'll figure out a way around it.

Back to the fact of the matter-if she had sex without giving consent, she was raped. No woman "deserves" to be forced to engage in sexual activity against her will, I don't care if she's walking down the street naked. To minimize her experience is only further victimizing her.

sugar and spice · #5 11-30-2004, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin

I can't believe you'd post something like this, Tom.

LOL.

You can't? Because I can.

As always, I agree with the "no means no" crowd and thank you all for expressing yourself more eloquently than I can.

SigPhiSunshine · #6 11-30-2004, 04:54 AM

well shit I guess I'm the asshole for not thinking it is wrong for someone under the age of 18 to be at a fraternity party (unless they are a registered student at the school, like in my case, i was 17 but I was a student at EMU). I must also be an asshole because I didnt go to frat parties untill I was old enough or in college. But back to the point. I don't care who was doing what when they were 16. So a few people say they were out partying at frat houses at 16, are we showing off or proving a point? If you're proving a point than its a bad point bc NO MINORS SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN FRATERNITY HOUSES! No, this doesn't make up for her being raped by saying she is some dumb girl who got drunk and had sex with a fraterity guy. But was she really raped? Maybe that is just what she told her parents to get out of shit. I have heard of people who will claim rape and get someone in a LOT of shit, just so they don't have to own up to what they did wrong. Maybe she doesn't want to say, "Yea mom, I did have sex with him. I am only 16, but I got drunk and had sex with some guy at a fraternity party." I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe...

SirHornyToad · #7 11-30-2004, 05:01 AM

i agree with sigphisunshine !

actually i made that point earlier, but i guess it got passed over.

Bottom line is this, try and put yourself into my shoes. As a male it's frightning to think that any time you hook up or have sex with a girl when your both drunk and such she could EASILY call rape at any time, no real questions asked and there really isnt much defense for it. Life is scarey when you think that at any time you could be screwed over out of anything, even spite. I'm not saying this is the case, but as a male I gotta at least stick up for our species a bit and give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Nikki_DZ · #8 11-30-2004, 05:19 AM

HornyToad and SiPhi, I understand what you are both saying. SigPhi, I apologize if I came off as calling you an "asshole", that was not my intent. Fact of the matter is, e DON'T know if she was actually raped, or what occured the night of the alleged assault. And since the girl obviously didn't/has not reported this to the authorities, it's doubtful that anyone other than her and the guy involved will ever know what really went down. It's a case of he said/she said.

My post was in reference to the implications that she "deserved" it, and the automatic assumption that she cried rape b/c she was embarassed/wanted to get out of trouble, etc (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone who made the implications, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter). I'm not denying that cases like this do happen. We've all seen them on the news, etc. But those represent a very small percentage of reported rape cases. Having worked in social services for what feels like a very long time (

), I am conditioned to believe victims until proven otherwise. And I admitidally do live in a bubble.

As far as her being at the fraternity house, and people responding that they went to fraternity parties in high school, I think it was just to prove the point that, whether or not it's right, it happens. Knowing what I know now, 10 years later, would I have gone to a fraternity party? Hell no. But I was young. I was dating a guy who I wanted to like me. All my friends were going. And I felt safe in the situation at the time. Maybe this girl was in similar circumstances. Maybe she just went along to be cool. Who knows? We know very little about this case, other than the limited information the mother provided. Should she have been allowed in? From a risk management stand point, HELL NO. But maybe no one knew she was underage. Maybe she had a fake ID. Not all schools have registered parties (I know mine didn't) and anyone, really, could roll in off the street.

And it IS scary. I remember hearing once (and this could have been an urban myth) that in certain states, a woman was not legally capable of giving consent after ONE alcoholic beverage. Whether or not this is true, I'm not sure, but it still does play on your mind. And I agree, it would be scary to be a guy and have that way on your mind. My only advice is to tread very, VERY carefully with girls you might be hooking up with.

sugar and spice · #9 11-30-2004, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SigPhiSunshine
But was she really raped? Maybe that is just what she told her parents to get out of shit. I have heard of people who will claim rape and get someone in a LOT of shit, just so they don't have to own up to what they did wrong. Maybe she doesn't want to say, "Yea mom, I did have sex with him. I am only 16, but I got drunk and had sex with some guy at a fraternity party." I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe...

I don't know -- maybe this is just me, but hey, if I went to a frat party at age 16 and willingly had sex with a guy, I wouldn't tell my mom about it. What would be the point of telling her, when I know she's going to disapprove, unless it was unconsentual?

Add to this the fact that this girl was 16 and the frat boy was probably not, so even if it was consentual, in some states it could be prosecuted as statuatory rape as well, if the mom chose to take it that far.

As for the post after this: What part of the law do y'all not understand? When a girl is intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol or drugs, in most states she is not legally able to give consent. Even if she says it's okay, for all practical purposes, having sex with her is breaking the law. Now is this necessarily very practical, fair, or romantic? No, but it's the law, and you're the one that broke it -- so if some girl decides to press charges for date rape, you can't pass yourself off as the victim.

AGDee · #10 11-30-2004, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sugar and spice
I don't know -- maybe this is just me, but hey, if I went to a frat party at age 16 and willingly had sex with a guy, I wouldn't tell my mom about it. What would be the point of telling her, when I know she's going to disapprove, unless it was unconsentual?

Add to this the fact that this girl was 16 and the frat boy was probably not, so even if it was consentual, in some states it could be prosecuted as statuatory rape as well, if the mom chose to take it that far.

As for the post after this: What part of the law do y'all not understand? When a girl is intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol or drugs, in most states she is not legally able to give consent. Even if she says it's okay, for all practical purposes, having sex with her is breaking the law. Now is this necessarily very practical, fair, or romantic? No, but it's the law, and you're the one that broke it -- so if some girl decides to press charges for date rape, you can't pass yourself off as the victim.

I have worked with kids who were worried that they'd gotten pregnant under such a circumstance and were, therefore, having to tell their mother about it. Some attempted suicide instead, leading them to be admitted to the hospital, when the story then came out.

ETA: I found a list of legal age of consent and am SHOCKED that it is 16 in many states (but not in Virginia, where this letter was from.. where it is 18)

16 AND drunk? Any college age man who touches a drunk 16 year old is a fool.

SirHornyToad: Yes, you are in a precarious position if you sleep with someone who is drunk. You really need to understand that the vast majority of women put some value in sex and probably believe that if you're sleeping with them, you are in a relationship with them. Yes, there are some women who are into one night stands, but it's not the majority and most will feel violated if it's only a one night stand and they didn't know it ahead of time. Out of self preservation, you would do best to not engage in such behavior. Women are rarely looking for a one night stand, they are looking for a relationship no matter how drunk they are. When they wake up the next morning and realize that you aren't seeing it as they do, they will definitely be upset. Since you know you are at risk for having "raped" a drunk woman, then don't sleep with drunk women.

Dee

carnation · #11 11-30-2004, 07:49 AM

Here's what bugs me. The letter is written too cluelessly to be real. Whaddya mean, was it rape? Of course it was rape and what adult would seriously write a letter like that? On top of that, no adult I know,except one--uses words like "fellow" and "great deal".

I think it sounds exactly like a Barb V letter, like she created this situation just so she could get Dear Abby to agree that it was rape and then she's going to quote it in some lame book about the supposed evils of the Greek system.

Lady Pi Phi · #12 11-30-2004, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirHornyToad
...Also I'd be interested to know how the "no" was said. Was it said playfully and on the third try she said "oh alright" for all we know if she was that drunk maybe she didn't say no at all, maybe she just felt guilty or someshit the next morning. Maybe she had been seeing that guy for a while and got pissed and decided to do something crazy because she may in fact be crazy. I'm not insensitive to rape, BUT something about this story sounds a little too much like an after school special and a little too drama queen for me...

It doesn't matter the tone of the NO. Once a woman says it, even vise versa...the other person stops IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!

If she/he didn't not mean then they will let you know if it's okay to keep going. I'm sorry but tone of voice is not an acceptable excuse.

kappaloo · #13 11-30-2004, 09:42 AM

As the letter reads it was rape. She explicitly stated her daughter tried to get him to stop.

It doesn't matter she was 16.
It doesn't matter she was drunk.
It doesn't matter it was at a frat party.

They were engaged in sexual activity, and she tried to get him to stop. If he didn't, that's rape.

Munchkin03 · #14 11-30-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kappaloo
As the letter reads it was rape. She explicitly stated her daughter tried to get him to stop.

It doesn't matter she was 16.
It doesn't matter she was drunk.
It doesn't matter it was at a frat party.

They were engaged in sexual activity, and she tried to get him to stop. If he didn't, that's rape.

EXACTLY.

What does everyone have a problen with in understanding this?

Some 16 year old girls look very mature for their age, while some 18 year olds look very young. None of the frat parties I ever went to--at 16, 17, 18, or 19--ever carded me or asked for my college ID. A 16-year old at a frat party doesn't shock me at all. But, in the warped-ass world that some of you live in, that gives some frat boy carte blanche to rape her.

Tom, as usual you say some of the most assinine, stupid stuff that makes me ashamed that you feel the need to post your letters in your sig, and I wish you'd get de-modded so I could block your drunken ramblings.

lyrica9 · #15 11-30-2004, 09:56 AM

to those who say he shouldn't have slept with a 16 year old:

who's to say he knew her age?

i know when i was in high school you didn't tell boys at fraternity parties that you weren't in college, because then they wouldn't talk to you.

it may have been rape, but i doubt she was little miss innocent through the entire ordeal.