Observations

[KnowledgeEternal]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
It was the result of new state laws as to what constituted hazing and certain specific HBCU's (most notably Morehouse) who had major incidents.

Wow you learn something new everyday. I go to Morehouse and I didn't know that. I know that a lot of the frats have just recently come back to campus(Alphas in 98, Ques in 99, Kappas 00-01); but no one but the frats and the administration really knows for sure what happened. There have been a RIDICULOUS amount of rumors though.

BTW, Do you know anything about Morehouse's process now? If so what do you think about it? I have my own opinions on it, I just want to see some others.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

Ahhh...just the thread that i was looking for...

*let me preface my question by offering a story*

Does everyone remember A Different World?
when A Different World first aired I was a sophomore in high school. And I loved it! So did my parents. We would watch it every thursday (reminiscing on when "black" television was informative and not a minstrel show). There were two episodes that now that I watch it every morning that I absolutely love! The first one was when Ron was pledging Kappa Lambda Nu (a fictional fraternity...for those that don't know)...and the second was when Kim was pledging Whitley's sorority Alpha Delta Rho (another fictional organization).

I remember watching the first episode about Ron with my mom...and watching the twinkle in her eyes as she "took a stroll down memory lane". It was also the episode that boosted me for my cotillion that was to happen in the spring with her sorority. She and I talked that evening about her experience on line back in the hmmmm...late 50's early 60's. Yes, she went through some sh*t...and she also experienced some great highs. But she never regreted the experience.

Later...I saw the episode when Kim was pledging and then and until this day I get pissed with her. So what she was a pre-med major and had two jobs...if "Big Sister Gorgeous One" (Whitley's name) told her to get up and get her breakfast at 5am then damn well she better do it! And you know what...I was pissed that she rallied the other line members to her side. AND SHE STILL GOT IN! Nah! I was angered because Kim did not know nor did not consider the value of what she was learning. Sisterhood above all else. Unity and devotion to the "history of Alpha Delta Rho"...you feel me? I had more respect for Ron and how he showed that Brotherhood was all for one and one for all. There is no time for "I" in brotherhood.

I am saying all this because i'm sure by now that Doggystyle82 is shocked that for once I agree.

Although I am not a greek...and I do bereave those who were killed and am saddened by those who were maimed by hazing. I must also say that those are exceptions to the rule. And if you look at the cases for the most part these incidences happened...after MIP.

My question is...

It is understood that Old Skool Greeks are not as "accepting" of those who are "made" by the MIP. But it is also understood that anyone who pledges now will, for the most part, be "made" through that process...and therefore they are technically victims of it and not always willing participants.
If you could restructure the pledging process by incorporating aspects of the MIP and the "old skool" way of pledging what would it be?
AND
Why has this not been done?
AND
What does one do with a member who is a "mad hazer" who consistently abuses and misuses their power?

*just a personal spin before i end*

Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement.

these things are the things that i was told by my mom (of course in sorority form) and other friends that made them desire and pursue their respective organizations more. when i toured HBCU's as a 13-15 year old i remember seeing folx on line. And thinking damn...that is tight!

While I do not agree with being physically emotionally abused...I do believe that certain forms of the old skool way are some things that bind men and women together.

As I end this I will just say that I have in the past been ridiculed for thinking this way. Those who ridicule me say..."you don't know what it was like! it was horrible! and you don't respect yourself if you will let someone make you do something!" You can find these statements in many places on the net...if you voice the opinion (non-greek and greek alike) that there is some validity to the old skool way of pledging.

I just want to know how can there be a happy medium?

Peace

[mccoyred]

Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle!

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.



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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by mccoyred:
Coleman Luv to my Bruhs! and CONGRATULATIONS to DoggyStyle!

As an Old Skooler who pledged in 1986 and made lines up until 1989, right before MIP, I can say that it was not the mentality of the sorors/frats but the changed mentality of the people who were applying for membership. The selection process changed and the mentality of applicants changed along with the 'law of the land'.

Pledging is/was not the problem, the definition of hazing is the problem.

How can we address the problem?
-first suspend intake for all orgs
-develop and STICK TO revised selection guidelines
-reinstitute interest groups and set guidelines for them
-reinstitute intake with well-defined PLEDGING guidelines
-TRAIN sorors/frats to perform pledging properly
-lobby to update the 'law' regarding hazing
-educate the public about what is RIGHT about pledging

Just some thoughts but I don't know how they can be implemented in this litigious society.

Well put, Soror. Sometimes we get caught up in talking about what is wrong with a thing. I appreciate the suggestons instead of just complaints.

[DoggyStyle82]

MCCOYRED:

We are of the same era and I see that we pretty much think alike on this subject. Our National bodies are in a Catch -22. Omega was the last org to adopt Intake and we almost did not do it (it was implemented without knowledge/consent of the general membership, but that is another story). The simple fact is, that if you are not in compliance with current state law, your org cannot be legally insured, you violate your tax-exempt status and can be stripped of it, no risk management underwriter will touch you, and most college campuses will revoke your status as a legal, campus recognized organization. Yes, the NPHC should lobby for the return to our non-hazing pledge traditions. But as long as we are in an anti-Greek climate and lawyers see dollar signs, the laws will not change. Did you know that there is a white lawyer based in MD whose practice is solely based on suing Black fraternities and sororities for hazing?

I wish we could go back because interests do have different expectations now and that leads to most of the so-called hazing incidents. we old-schoolers arer to blame when we glorify the past but then again, we know how it is supposed to be.

LASTPOET: glad that we agree on something. Your mom sounds like my kind of woman.

[the411]

A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad. I am not saying that humbling yourself means subjecting yourself to any and everything and living in total fear; I am saying that interesteds need to start realizing that we know what our orgs are looking for in prospective members, and that we know what they need to gain from the pledgeship in order to value and appreciate their familyhood. Nowadays, you've got pledgees calling bluffs and making threats, while we're "giving in" to save our chapters and keep our orgs out of the news over something that shouldn't even come close to being considered hazing (like dressing alike), but it is.

Pledging vs. Hazing. That's the issue. Although they aren't the same, the law has made them synonyms.




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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by the411:
A big problem I see is that interesteds feel they hold some kind of power--like they are the shot-callers, if you will. They know the anti-hazing laws are there, so they come into the process with a "you-can't-f%$#-with-me" attitude. There is little to no humility left, which is sad.

Ms. Quintessence, you are so right. This is especially true of legacies and those interests who silent monitor Greek boards. They know that certain things that members consider "pledging" are technically or legally "hazing" and feel empowered to flaunt the inadequacies of the MIP, such as dropping dime when they are not accepted or refusing to humble themselves to "chapter traditions" . That is why orgs are full of "research" members and not "pledged" members

[Hudson]

I dont believe changing things again will work either. You can end, revamp, change the laws, reinstitute the pledge process all you want. When you finally formulate a process that is pleasing to everyone, you will still have those "exceptions" who will haze and beat the sh*& out of a line. Yes you can have a graduate representative there, but he/she cannot be there at all times and there may even be a "bad" graduate representative who's down with the beat down.

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

[DoggyStyle82]

Obviously you have a point to espouse and nothing will change your mind. If you don't want to pledge to be in a fraternity, the Boy Scouts, 100 Black Men, Urban League, or whatever civic organization, is always on the lookout for men to participate. If what it takes to get into a fraternity is not for you, look elsewhere.

[the411]

So, Hudson-- What are YOU proposing?

Since (let you tell it) those of us on the inside don't have the answers, I'm interested in what YOU think is the best way. Sounds to me like you're saying that, no matter what is done, there will still be extremities. We could give "hazers" the death penalty, but the "hazee" will still have been hurt. So, what are you suggesting we do, short of somehow programming members to be "Stepford Greeks" who all act and think exactly alike?

You've stated the obvious-- that no matter what the rules and laws, s%$@ may still happen. So, unless YOU have the secret formula and are willing to share it, then Doggy is right-- the solution is for you and other GDIs to simply not join if you are that concerned about the negatives of pledging.

And I'm Out...

the411

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Hudson:

I know some of you will say, well punish those who haze, but, thats dealing with the problem after the fact. You can punish a member through suspension or expulsion, but you are still left with a pledgee who is physical hurt or, well, dead.

But that is the way it is now. The change to MIP has not ended violent hazing. Some argue it has increased it and in some places encoraged it. We still deal with it after the fact. Allowing pledging does not prevent prosecution of hazers.

[Hudson]

In response to the411, I think things should stay the way it is right now. Only because it seems like the only way to protect the Fraternity or Sorority from lawsuits and shifts the blame, legally, on the individual members who choose to go againts the policies set out by each organization.

[Hudson]

To DoggyStyle82, Well knowing how much shame and ridicule I will receive from doing the MIP, I most likely will not pledge a greek-lettered organization. Good news for you.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i actually think that the 411's examples of how MIP can be revamped and reshaped to include not only the new system but aspects of the old system is basically showing how those who are "mad hazers" can be eliminated.

the thing that seems to have happened is that with the inception of MIP those who are in the organization (strictly my opinion and not direct knowledge considering i'm not a member of any GLO) have felt that they have no control over the process. the process that many have respected over time has been lost due to someone elses grave errors. those folx who were involved in the deaths and serious injuries of pledges were not trained in the ways of pledging vs. hazing.

there is my brotha a difference.

hazing will never unify but pledging always does!

if there was a training session put in place for greeks before they take on a line. if the guidelines are set before them...in black and white....with no exceptions. and the session that explains the difference between hazing and pledging is outlined in detail and taking with great care to make everyone involved completely aware of the details then there will most likely be fewer deaths and injuries.
of course the process that is put forth must involve, as i said before, aspects of the "old skool" way and the MIP.

has the MIP reduced deaths? maybe. But has the MIP encouraged brother/sisterhood...i would argue not really. even people who are sorely against the "old" way are quick to shout that they were initiated before intake.

it is sad Hudson...but renegades exist in every organization and organized movement. no matter how many times you say "don't do that" some fool will do it anyway. but that is when it is up to the national organization to make sure that person is held accountable for their actions. and i would even argue that if a melding of "old skool" and MIP were made the members of the organization would be more likely to discipline a renegade on their own.

i would offer you (Hudson) a really great site that discusses the reasons for pledging. in my opinion it is one of the best sources that i have read that outlines the ancient inception of a "pledge process". The Temple of Blue
for me the difference became crystal clear. my understanding of, marching in formation, learning understanding embracing the history of an organization through training sessions, wearing matching outfits, going through the final intense week that is often referred to as "hell week" etc., was completely enhanced.

it is true that there are problems with the current system. and admittedly because there was seemingly no limit on the "old skool" way of things there were problems as well. but if there was some revamping of a system that for many is remembered with the kind of love one can only feel for family...then the deaths and the injuries will cease.

peace

[D.E.M.4's]

I have read through most of the threads. I must say that I am proud of everyone on this site for speaking their mind and having the guts to say all of this on the internet.

My question is did the Omegas and Deltas or any of NPHC for that matter, get their rights back to have a "pledge process" again or is this a "hypothetical topic?" I ask because in my sorority we are put on moritorium for even saying the word "Pledging" (first hand experience.) I will understand if you can not answer but I just thought I would ask.