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  #1  
Old 12-05-2003, 05:11 PM
Kimmie1913 Kimmie1913 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
IvySpice, my initial intention was not arge the in's and out's or the merit of this case, but moreso discuss the possibility of this type of restriction happening on a large scale, whether or not it is right to do that, and to see what everyone thought.

Looking at it in general terms (using this as an example) at the fact that should these types of clauses (whether it be a state or maybe even the fed. gov't at some future point) be allowed to exist - those that specifically prohibit "public money" to pay for religious training.

Isn't that person apart of the public (paying taxes, etc.).
Hmmm...many (if not all states) have particular scholarships that are designated for the study of particular fields (Maryland has scholarships specific to teaching, to nursing, to medicine, to law, to business etc.) They do not cover every possible major. There are people who may not be eligible for a scholarship based on their chosen field of study. Should the state have to offer a scholarship regardless of the major? To say that they state of Washington and its residents cannot choose what types of scholarships to offer seems rather extreme to me.

Now if they will cover study for any other degree than divinity/theology....I don't think it is right. Do I think they should have to even though I don't think it right....no. If they would not fund degrees for people of a particular faith it would be discrimination, but this is focused on the course of study not the individual. And whole some may call it a veiled attempt to get at the person based on religion, they would pay for the individual to study anything else they wanted. It may be discrimination against the program but they are not a protected class under discrimination law. (race, religion, creed, national origin, and to a lesser extent gender, age and disability)

I do think that Bush's stance is hypocritical from a state's rights context.
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  #2  
Old 12-05-2003, 05:50 PM
librasoul22 librasoul22 is offline
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Kimmie1913 and LadyGreek y'all have said everything that I was thinking, and probably far more eloquently than I could have.

AXE, aggieAXO has a point. What about the straight people who are horrible parents? Gay unions are illegal now in most states, yet there is still crime, deviance, and immorality, right?

Again your example of one child being sad because his/her parents were gay is simply insignificant. A singular experience cannot be used to prove any sort of trend.

Kimmie1913 basically summed up my entire opinion here:

I think that as long as marriage remains a legal, civil matter, same sex individuals should be recognized. Part of the freedoms in this country IMO are that just because something is permitted, you do not have to support it or do it. If your religious beliefs or personal morals say that it is wrong, you are free to speak out against it, to not support it, and advise others against it. Your church can choose not to perform these ceremonies. At the same time, others may. This is my opinion on the legality of gay marriage (and a few other controversial topics.) I think we have the right to campaign for our beliefs but not to demand that others live by them.
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  #3  
Old 12-05-2003, 07:31 PM
IvySpice IvySpice is offline
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HoneyKiss1974, I'm with Kimmie1913 on this one. I think it's bad policy for a state to grant scholarships only to students studying secular subjects, but I don't think it's unconstitutional.

The state is allowed to treat people differently in many ways. For example, the state can say that churches don't have to pay taxes, but secular charities do. That's giving special treatment to religious organizations, and it's perfectly legal as long as every kind of church/temple/shrine is included.
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  #4  
Old 12-05-2003, 09:04 PM
aggieAXO aggieAXO is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoggyStyle82

The whole animal marriage thing is a red herring and AXO needs to stop tripping on that.

[/B]
Hey I am not the one that brought this up initially and kept harping on this point. Maybe you should mention the original poster who kept bringing it up. I just wanted people to see how ludicrous this argument was.
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  #5  
Old 01-07-2004, 08:56 PM
CrimsonTide4 CrimsonTide4 is offline
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While I hesitate to bring this topic back to the top, I found this on Yahoo News

Retirement Complex for Gays to Open
Wed Jan 7, 1:34 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!


By DEBORAH BAKER, Associated Press Writer

SANTA FE, N.M. - Ruthie Berman and Connie Kurtz want a retirement community they can afford, in a place they like, with assisted living if they should need it.

Related Links
• RainbowVision Properties



But the two grandmothers want more: a community of like-minded people with whom they feel safe and supported as a lesbian couple.


"I don't want to have to explain being out of the closet," Berman said.


They have turned to RainbowVision Properties, which plans to break ground by the spring on a complex for the "gay and gray" that will offer condominiums for sale and independent-living and assisted-living apartments for rent.


"If I go to RainbowVision and I walk through that door, I'm walking through to sisters and brothers," Berman said.


With so much more in common than just their ages — Berman is 69, Kurtz 67 — Kurtz says she envisions residents dispensing with lengthy introductions and getting right down to business: "Who plays cards? Who's got the checkers?"


The complex, which could open in 2005, will include a dining room, community rooms, studios for artists and a rooftop cafe.


Joy Silver, RainbowVision's president, has dreamed for decades about a retirement community for gays and lesbians, but a stroll through Manhattan's West Village — where she lived about six years ago — convinced her to try to make it a reality. She remembers noticing flashing lights coming from the second floor of a nursing home where most of the elderly and infirm residents were gay.


There was a disco ball, and "go-go boys dancing on the table," she recalled.


"I said to myself, 'Now that's the party that I want, when I'm that age and I'm in that condition. Because if there isn't any dancing, I don't want to be there.'"


She found gay-friendly Santa Fe the perfect spot. It is second only to San Francisco in the percentage of households with same-sex couples, according to the 2000 Census.


"We're in the right place at the right time," she said.


A handful of retirement communities in the United States market themselves to gays and lesbians, but they don't offer such a wide range of options, according to Silver. The Santa Fe community will include assisted living services, including medication management. A registered nurse will be on the premises 'round the clock.


"As far as we are aware, it is the first of its kind," said Terry Kaelber, executive director of Senior Action in a Gay Environment, a social services and advocacy organization in New York City.


Kaelber said conservative estimates show there are more than 3 million gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender residents over age 60 in the United States. But even so, "our community has been slow to admit that we age," he said.


Many older members of the gay community have a fear of mainstream service providers and are reluctant to turn to them for help. They grew up at a time "when every part of society said that you were less than those around you," Kaelber said. "The medical community literally branded us as being mentally ill."


Now that they're older and more vulnerable, gay seniors fear that they'll encounter that same bigotry, and many go back into the closet, Kaelber said.





Since moving from New York, Berman and Kurtz have lived for several months in a gated community for people over 50 in Florida. They are activists and a very public couple, the subject of the 2002 documentary "Ruthie & Connie: Every Room in the House." It chronicles the story of the two young housewives and mothers from Brooklyn who become fast friends and eventually fall in love, leaving their husbands for one another.

While some of their Florida neighbors are friendly, they also have encountered prejudice. "You must be one of 'them,'" a woman in the pool told Kurtz recently.

The notion of a welcoming environment that would make the tough job of aging easier is so appealing that Berman and Kurtz not only got on the waiting list for RainbowVision, they invested in the project.

They're counting on a place where "growing old doesn't have to be as painful," where medical and other services would be provided with sensitivity, where the mundane act of filling out forms wouldn't be an affront because there's no box they fit into.

"I've been with Ruthie for 28 years. Do you think I want to write 'S' for single?" Kurtz said.

Ninety-one-year-old Hilda Rush, who describes herself as "Santa Fe's oldest living lesbian," has her cherished independence and the health to enjoy it. She lives alone, goes to her book and bridge clubs, delivers food to the homebound and works out at the gym twice a week.

She, too, has reserved a spot in the RainbowVision community, where a spa and fitness center are planned. "I'm just hoping it materializes in my lifetime," Rush said.

Like the rest of the population, gays and lesbians tend to become more isolated as they get older, said David Aronstein, founder of Stonewall Communities, which plans to open in Boston in the next couple of years a complex of cooperative apartments for older gays and their friends.

"The older generation in the gay and lesbian community has been kind of hidden, kind of invisible. They haven't necessarily been out of the closet," Aronstein said.

Many don't have children to care for them.

"The conversation that has happened among groups of friends for years has been, 'What's going to happen to us when we're older?'" he said. "We are in the position of having to imagine what kind of future we want to have, and create it."

RainbowVision Santa Fe's $28 million project will be built on a 12.7-acre site a few miles south of downtown. It will have 146 units. While it's aimed at gays and lesbians, it won't be exclusive, Silver said. Nor will it be age-restricted: Among the prospective tenants are a couple of men in their 30s from Los Angeles, one of whom has multiple sclerosis.

With barely any marketing, 45 people already have signed up.

Peter Lundberg, a San Francisco area financial consultant and developer, has been researching the market for seven years. "It's a huge and untapped market that's ready, willing and able," said Lundberg, who will target gay adults from ages 55 to 72 in his proposed "Our Town" retirement resort village. The location hasn't been decided.

Lundberg said surveys completed by 900 people indicate that older gays and lesbians strongly seek community. They want the same services and amenities as other retirement community residents — but delivered with a different sensibility. And, overwhelmingly, they want a place that is developed and run by other gays and lesbians.

___

On the Net:

Ruthie Berman and Connie Kurtz: www.ruthieandconnie.com

RainbowVision Properties: www.rainbowvisionprop.com

Senior Action in a Gay Environment: www.sageusa.org

Stonewall Communities: www.stonewallcommunities.com

Our Town: www.ourtownvillages.com



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have an editorial that I will post later but this one was different.
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  #6  
Old 01-08-2004, 03:52 AM
AXEAM AXEAM is offline
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First they captured Saddam and now this "go-go boys dancing on the table"



Lord take me now.
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  #7  
Old 01-08-2004, 12:08 PM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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Senusret I just wants to love.

Why won't you let Senusret I love?
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  #8  
Old 01-08-2004, 12:57 PM
AKA2D '91 AKA2D '91 is offline
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There, there....
YOU can LOVE all you want to!
As with anyone else, just be careful!

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  #9  
Old 03-10-2004, 12:39 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Blacks angry over comparison of gay movement to civil rights movement

Yall know I had to bring this thread back
I actually think it is absurd to compare anything about homosexuals to the civil rights movement...but the so-called similarities are now being argued...

Does anyone believe the two "movements" (and I use that term lightly in re: to the homosexuals...) are similar?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUNDAY March 07, 2004
Blacks divided on whether civil-rights fight, gay marriage are comparable





By Allen Breed
The Associated Press

When small-town Mayor Jason West started presiding over gay weddings, he saw it as nothing short of "the flowering of the largest civil-rights movement the country's had in a generation."
"The people who would forbid gays from marrying in this country are those who would have made Rosa Parks sit in the back of the bus," said the Green Party mayor of New Paltz, N.Y.
West's words have a strong resonance for gays and lesbians who feel their rights are being denied, but for blacks who worked to end racial discrimination in the 1950s and '60s, the reaction is decidedly mixed. Some civil-rights leaders find the comparison apt, but other blacks call it downright disgraceful.
"The gay community is pimping the civil-rights movement and the history," said the Rev. Gene Rivers, a black Boston minister and president of the National Ten-Point Leadership Foundation. "In the view of many, it's racist at worst, cynical at best."
The Rev. Joseph Lowery says American blacks should clearly sympathize with the gay community's fight for rights.
But Lowery, who founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference with Martin Luther King Jr., said the sheer weight of U.S. history precludes too close a comparison.
"Homosexuals as people have never been enslaved because of their sexual orientation," he argued. "They may have been scorned; they may have been discriminated against. But they've never been enslaved and declared less than human."
The Rev. Jesse Jackson, while supporting "equal protection under the law" for gays, agreed that comparisons to the struggles of the civil-rights movement are "a stretch."
"Gays were never called three-fifths human in the Constitution," he said.
Another issue is that of choice, said D'Army Bailey, a marcher with the armed Deacons for Defense and Justice and a founder of the National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tenn.
"I don't have a choice to be black and, therefore, had to be faced with the human rights battle from birth," said Bailey, a judge in Memphis.
Keith Boykin, a gay, black man, scoffs at the notion that sexual orientation is a choice. But even if it were true, he said, that's not the point.
"At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which group is most oppressed or whether they are identically oppressed," said Boykin, president of the New York-based National Black Justice Coalition. "What matters is that no group be oppressed."





© Copyright 2004, The Salt Lake Tribune.
All material found on Utah Online is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake Tribune.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #10  
Old 03-10-2004, 01:22 AM
Senusret I Senusret I is offline
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That's exactly why I like Keith Boykin. His last sentence is all that needs to be said about the issue.
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  #11  
Old 03-10-2004, 09:58 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Senusret I
That's exactly why I like Keith Boykin. His last sentence is all that needs to be said about the issue.
Are you implying that gays are being oppressed by not being able to participate in the RELIGIOUS institution of marriage?
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  #12  
Old 03-10-2004, 10:29 AM
Honeykiss1974 Honeykiss1974 is offline
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Re: Blacks angry over comparison of gay movement to civil rights movement

Quote:
Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Yall know I had to bring this thread back
I actually think it is absurd to compare anything about homosexuals to the civil rights movement...but the so-called similarities are now being argued...

Does anyone believe the two "movements" (and I use that term lightly in re: to the homosexuals...) are similar?

No the movements ARE NOT similiar! Even though the NAACP thinks otherwise.
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Old 03-10-2004, 10:57 AM
Sistermadly Sistermadly is offline
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The movements have some similarities, especially when you consider that the Idiot-in-Chief is trying to legally add discriminatory language into the constitution that makes gays and lesbians second class citizens. Sound familiar, anyone?

When you are fighting for recognition, for enfranchisement, for the right to enjoy the same financial, legal, and spousal benefits as everyone else; when you are fighting to have your class become a legally protected class (like other minorities), and when you are fighting to be included in the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", you have a civil rights issue.

Civil rights isn't just about dogs and hoses. It isn't just about sitting at lunch counters or not moving to the back of the bus. It's about demanding access to the same centers of power that everyone else has access to, and right now, gay and lesbian couples don't have access to one of the main avenues to power in the US - through legally (and socially) sanctioned marriage.
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Last edited by Sistermadly; 03-10-2004 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:03 AM
Sistermadly Sistermadly is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Are you implying that gays are being oppressed by not being able to participate in the RELIGIOUS institution of marriage?
Marriage isn't a religious institution, and I wish fundamentalists would stop harping on that issue. I don't care what it says in whichever bible -- the institution of marriage as we know it was created for the transfer of property through familial lines. In some ways, it was the only way that women could compete for access to the family assets: if she were married, the assumption would be that her "husband" would take care of whatever assets previously belonged to her father. The transfer would go from father to son-in-law, but it would still remain in the family.

People who are married in civil ceremonies - wait, let me refrain that - HETEROSEXUAL people who are married in civil ceremonies are not considered any less married than those who are married in high church weddings that are 17 hours long because you have to do mass in the middle of them. This is a fear issue, and WRT to some African Americans, I think the fear is that yet another group has come along and is is trying to jump on the "disempowerment" wagon, which leaves even less room for us.

Personally, I think it's idiotic to play the "I'm more oppressed than you!" game. If people are hurting, if people are being disenfranchised and denied the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it's LEGAL issue, plain and simple. We have to decide whether it is still legally conscionable in this day and age to openly discriminate against a class of people.
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  #15  
Old 03-10-2004, 11:10 AM
AKA2D '91 AKA2D '91 is offline
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I feel you Sistermadly...

Maybe more people would be happy with the term Civil Liberties instead of Civil Rights?
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