Order of the Phoenix Spoiler Thread

[aephi alum]

Originally posted by sherbertlemons
Exactly how do you define mudblood, though? Does the slur apply only to people completely muggleborn, or can it apply to halfbloods? The books haven't really demonstrated how precise it is.

As I understand it, the term "mudblood" applies to anyone with at least one Muggle parent. The term refers only to parents, not the rest of the family - Harry is not considered a "mudblood", even though his aunt and other family members were Muggles, because both his parents were wizards. Could be wrong though...

[Beryana]

If Lily's parents are squibs then Harry cannot trace his geneology unbroken through many generations of wizards. Being a descendant of squibs as well as a muggle lover is reason enough for V & Co to dislike Harry (especially throwing in there the profecy, the involvement in the Order, etc).

With regards to the term 'mudblood' I think that it is used in a derogetory manner towards anyone no matter what the parentage but typically used towards muggle-born wizards. In a way this could be similar to our use of the word 'bastard' (though much more mildly!). Technically it means of person of unmarried parents but is used derogetorily, usually in anger or frustration, to any person. Obviously this is a much milder analogy, but you get the idea (and I didn't want to run the risk of offending anyone. . . )!

I think it all boils down to the fact that we don't know much about Harry's grandparent (both Evans and Potter) or what's up with Petunia (the fact Dumbledore referred to her by her first name as he does with his former students. . . .)

Sarah

[DWAlphaGam]

The idea of Lily and Petunia's parents being squibs is a very good one. I never thought about that, but it's entirely possible. It would explain Petunia's knowledge of dementors and it would also explain how she understood about the magic that protects Harry at her house. If she really feels such animosity towards Harry and her sister, she would not have taken Harry in and kept him there unless she understood the gravity of the situation. The fact that Harry is constantly referred to as half-blood is the thing that keeps me from completely believing (for now) that the Evans family were anything but full muggles.

Re: Pureblood vs half-blood vs mudblood: Lily is considered mudblood because her parents were muggles. Harry can't be pureblood, even though both his parents were wizards, because his mother was a mudblood. So, that's why he is half-blood, same as Tonks or Voldemort, who each had a muggle parent.

BTW, I just finished re-reading OotP, and I noticed that Dumbledore confirms on several occasions that Sirius is indeed dead. A few people were making the argument awhile back that Harry assumes that he is dead and is the only one that actually uses the word "dead" when he talks about it. But, when Harry is in Dumbledore's office afterwards, Phineas Nigellus asks if his great-great grandson is dead, and Dumbledore says yes. Dumbledore also says "It is my fault that Sirius died." So, I think he really is dead, but that Harry will find a way of communicating with him. I think other people were avoiding the use of the word "dead" out of sympathy for Harry.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Beryana
I don't think that Petunia is a squib because JKR makes a big deal about mentioning Lily is a 'mudblood' when V refers to her, etc. I actually think that Lily and Petunia's parents are squibs which is why they would be VERY excited that at least one of their daughters got a letter from Hogwarts. It also explains how Petunia knows as much as she does about the Wizarding World.

Hmmm. Possible. I like this theory -- it could explain a lot (including McGonnegal's comment that the Dursleys are Muggles).

I do thing that it is clear that Lilly was not the first witch (or wizard) in the family. A number of things in OotP (and elsewhere) seem to suggest this:

-- When the subject of dementors come up, Petunia knows that they guard Askaban, the wizard prison. She claims to know this because she "heard him" mention it to her sister once. By the time she say this, it would have had to be at least fifteen years ago that she heard this. Seems odd that she could remember it so well.

-- Notice that it's always Uncle Vernon who interrogates Harry and asks the questions about the wizarding world. Petunia stays silent, except for her comment about Azkaban and her reaction to the news the HWMNBN is back. JKR describes how Petunia seemed to grasp the implications of this.

-- Remember that apparently wizards do not keep track of the whereabouts or identities of squibs. Even Fudge did not now that a squib (Arabella Figg) lived near Harry; he was sure that there were no other wizards or witches in the vicinity of Little Whining.

-- Think back to Prisoner of Azkaban and Aunt Marge's endless pontification about "bad blood will out" and "it's all in the breeding." Either Petunia or her parents as squibs could be a nice twist to Aunt Marge's "theory."

And question -- does anyone ever refer to Harry as a half-blood except HWMNBN, Dumbledore (who does so in reference to HWMNBN's perspective -- that V considers Harry a half-blood) or maybe Malfoy?

Just a few more thoughts.

Somewhat off the topic at hand, but I've been thinking about the Grainger family.

To my understanding, the wizarding world goes to GREAT lengths to keep Muggles from realizing they exist. Yet Hermione seems to have studied about Hogwarts for a long time before she got her letter. How would she know about it? And how would it be explained to her parents? "Sir and Ma'am, we'd like to take your daughter away to a secret boarding school that you can't visit, and we can't tell you what happens there"?

any ideas?

[SilverTurtle]

Originally posted by Ginger
Somewhat off the topic at hand, but I've been thinking about the Grainger family.

To my understanding, the wizarding world goes to GREAT lengths to keep Muggles from realizing they exist. Yet Hermione seems to have studied about Hogwarts for a long time before she got her letter. How would she know about it? And how would it be explained to her parents? "Sir and Ma'am, we'd like to take your daughter away to a secret boarding school that you can't visit, and we can't tell you what happens there"?

any ideas?

You know, I'm rereading Chamber of Secrets, and when the kids all meet up in Diagon Alley, there's something about the Grainger parents looking a little nervous. Which I thought was strange- weren't they there the first year, too?

[MysticCat]

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[aephi alum]

Originally posted by Ginger
Somewhat off the topic at hand, but I've been thinking about the Grainger family.

To my understanding, the wizarding world goes to GREAT lengths to keep Muggles from realizing they exist. Yet Hermione seems to have studied about Hogwarts for a long time before she got her letter. How would she know about it? And how would it be explained to her parents? "Sir and Ma'am, we'd like to take your daughter away to a secret boarding school that you can't visit, and we can't tell you what happens there"?

any ideas?

It's possible that Hermione herself only found out about the wizarding world when she got her letter. Since she's Muggle-born, she probably got some information on the wizarding world along with her letter. Then she went off and did some research on her own (being Hermione ).

Or it could be that potential Muggle-born wizards, and their Muggle parents, are contacted well in advance of the summer before they'd start at Hogwarts, and taught about the wizarding world in preparation.

The wizarding world does go to great lengths to keep most Muggles from realizing they exist - but Muggles who are immediate relatives of wizards (including Muggle parents, siblings, and (I would guess) spouses of wizards, as well as Squibs) are let in on the secret.

[sherbertlemons]

Originally posted by DWAlphaGam

BTW, I just finished re-reading OotP, and I noticed that Dumbledore confirms on several occasions that Sirius is indeed dead. A few people were making the argument awhile back that Harry assumes that he is dead and is the only one that actually uses the word "dead" when he talks about it. But, when Harry is in Dumbledore's office afterwards, Phineas Nigellus asks if his great-great grandson is dead, and Dumbledore says yes. Dumbledore also says "It is my fault that Sirius died." So, I think he really is dead, but that Harry will find a way of communicating with him. I think other people were avoiding the use of the word "dead" out of sympathy for Harry.

I don't think that Harry will even communicate with him. JKR's said in interveiws that death has to be permanent, or else it isn't scary. I really don't think she'd halfway kill him like that. (Because, really, killing him but letting Harry still communicate with him really isn't killing him off, y'know?)

My perspective- Sirius is dead. In this world, dead means absolutely gone. The only way Harry might talk to him is some kind of device that somehow traps a shadow of him, a bit like Tom Riddle's diary but maybe interactive. I can't remember exact passages offhand, but I beleive various characters have said things alluding to magic's limited power when it comes to death. Even just Avada Kedavra is an illustration- there is no countercurse and it is irreversable. I think JKR means for death to be something even wizards can't conquer.

As for Mudblood (or even the term half-blood), what I'm getting at is it may be misleading to just assume that it automatically means a certain amount of Muggle heritage. I'm thinking it's a bit like the "one-drop" philosophy that shows up several times through history. I think someone considering themselves pureblood might refer to someone who has 3 wizard grandparents as a halfblood simply because they definitely aren't pure. It would be interesting to see how the squib thing factors into the whole equation. Maybe they are considered weaker wizarding blood?

I think the whole concept of Lily's parents as squibs is a possibility, too. I am just absolutely convinced that Petunia has had more exposure to the wizarding world than she lets on.

[Lady Pi Phi]

So I've decided to re-read the series and I've just started book 1 again.

After reading part way through, I still think that Lily and Petunia's parents are muggles.

On page 61 in The Philosopher's Stone Hagrid says to Harry, "...some o' the best I ever saw were the only ones with maic in 'em in a long line o' Muggles - look at yer mum! Look at what she had fer a sister!"

Now while he doesn't refer to Lily's parents, he does make reference to Petunia being a Muggle, which leads me to believe that her parents were Muggles.

Also, in the book Harry is trying on his robes for Hogwarts and he has a conversation with a boy. This boy is most likely Draco Malfoy, although it doesn't mention is name in this chapter (Diagon Alley), but this boy says to Harry about Muggles, "Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get their letter..." (pg. 61, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone )
I'm thinking Hermione and her family received some sort of explaination about Hogwarts and the wizarding world when she got her letter. That's how they know.

[RACooper]

Slightly off topic.....

but wlaking down a street near my home today I noticed that the oldest (50 years) book/stationary store in the area is called Squibbs (2 b's but hey close enough). The store has always been the "executive" or refined store, ie. were you go to buy fancy pens, briefcases, paper, art supplies, or books...... but in one corner of the front display there is a Harry Potter display with all of the books and some photos, including some pics of the owner with J.K.R. in front of the store........ seems there distantly related somehow...... wierd coincidence huh?

[James]

When Harry was looking into Snapes PEnsieve, I thought it might be developing that in fact Snape had a Crush on Lilly (Harry's Mom) So double hated James both for being totally cool and for taking the girl he liked.

Remember that Lilly made James stop torturing Snape.

It would add extra meaning to the hatred.

[James]

I'll try and look the passag up for you guys lol. But it says that a mudblood is one born from two muggle parents.

In fact Hermione gives that definition, paraphrased, in Chambers of Secrets.

[aephi alum]

Something just occurred to me...

In book 1, when Ron looks into the Mirror of Erised, he sees himself as Quidditch captain and Head Boy.

In book 5, he is now a prefect and on the Quidditch team.

So he's actually on track, now, to fulfill what he saw in the mirror.

Hmmm.....

[rainbowbrightCS]

aephi alum


great point. Ron is one his way.

And Harry saw his family. Well he is getting a family. The Weasleys have basically adopted him.

I wonder what hermoine would see?