Greek acceptance in the church!

[tkeos443]

My fraternity was founded at a Weslyan school and by the religion of my founders we have grown with god's grace to become one of the largest fraternities in the world and just because Candles are used doesnt mean anything when you lite a candle in your house are you doing something wrong sometimes dont you think that stuff could mean something and no one is more important then god. If you take it toi far then there's a problem but it is just a ceremony

[D-Train]

Pink Ice, I know i'm about to step on toes but, that same crew would abolish greek organizations, would probablby do the same for Masonic orders or any other group that they could not obtain information about without joining. Like it was memtioned earlier in a post, if a lot of our pastors and civic leaders{who are in most cases, ministers} are part of a GLO, then why should someone be so quick to judge the unknown.

[Salience]

Coming from a sizeable Masonic family, I have heard horrible tales about ministers refusing to let Masons and Stars hold programs in their churches. I may have mentioned this on another thread, but when my uncle died, the minister refused to allow the Masons to perform their ceremony in the church, which is just ludicrous to me.

People on the outside can always reach snap decisions about things they know next-to-nothing about, and those "documentaries" on Discovery or History or MTV channels only fuel the flames of ire.

[Kevin]

There was actually a big movement back in the early 1800's where fraternities and secret societies were harshly criticized for being evil and such. There were a few major "open" fraternal organizations founded around that time such as Delta Upsilon in 1834. For the most part though, these organizations were very short-lived.

Many GLO's are founded on Christian principles in fact. Sigma Nu's founders for example took an oath the night they began our predecessor organization "The Legion of Honor" on a BIBLE. The Bible is still prominently used in our fraternity to this day.

Many GLO's stress an importance in spiritual growth. I would say that it is not idols that we prop up, it is IDEALS.

It is natural to fear what you do not understand. It is understood that someone might.

There was a post earlier in the thread by Virtuosity. I would challenge her/him to please NAME the organization that worships a god or goddess instead of saying "Greek organizations that have a goddess or god as their patron, are bad because this type of thing promote the worshipping of FALSE GODS".

Baseless allegations are not becoming and not honorable in the least. It may work when you're talking to the general unenlightened public, but not here.


LHT,
Kevin

[Optimist Prime]

I know lots of Christians that use Jesus or Mary as a patron. And I know they use the patron saints as such. As long as you are a good person, it should matter what you believe. Do I use patrons? My fraternity doesn't, but for myself, yes. I have lots of them. Gods/Goddesses, King Arthur, Charelemange, That druid guy whose name I can't think of. Basically, anyone from mythology or folklore or religion that is an examplar of the ideals i strive for (and the ideals my fraternity strives for) as patrons. My fraternity doesn't use them because that is like pushing beliefs on a member, and we are open to all faiths, creeds, etc.

[Tom Earp]

Billy, you are not into trees or things like that are you?

I never frown on anothers relegion unless they try to foist it onto me when I have one! When I was youger, I went to many Churches and Synagogs to learn. It may benefit others to do the same. Learning is still the Key Of Life!

If you do not learn something new everyday then you are lost!

The Majority of the Greek Fraternal Organizations are founded on Christian Principles along with I know are the Mason's and Moose! That these are the only ones that I can personally speak of, the only one I keep up with to this day is LXA!

[Optimist Prime]

trees? Yeah. I guess so. I need them to breathe. I don't worship them though.

edited because I just figured out what Tom was getting at.

Yes, Tom. I believe that the "power of nature" and the "power of god" are inhereintly the same thing. I also think that anyway you can commune or feel at one with that power then its religion. The stories, parables, psalms, myths, etc. are the outer trapings. The essential of faith is whats beneath that.

[Tom Earp]

Whew, thnk you Billy for clearing that up for me!

Man trees can give splinters!

I know some people who are Druids and they are Great People, well Brandon is a little strange, but that is Brandon!

I saw Stonehenge when I was In England and is much smaller than pictures. Near By was also another stone grouping but Stoney got the recognition so is on TV!

Ever wonder why there are Pryamids in so many places? The Sphinx did not come fro the same time period, Easter Island and other places had Huge Stone Heads!

Did Jesus Rise as was stated in teh Bible, which by the way was written many years after the fact?

I was in a religious compound in Tenn. and had a mock up of the tomb, hell had square door cover! Dont do much rolling with that!

There is to much that we do not know and maybe never will, but folk lore is passed down and much of it is true!

Well that got entirely off of the subject post!

[Kapsig1]

Originally posted by Tom Earp

Did Jesus Rise as was stated in teh Bible, which by the way was written many years after the fact?
[/B]

Not NEARLY as many years after most ancient history that you and I accept as FACT! Besides, people were specifically trained and conditioned to retain history back then. The evidence is overwhelming that these "historians" we amazingly accurate.

Just a thought,
Brad

[adduncan]

Hi folks,
I know I'm a Jane-come-lately on this thread, just ran across it.

One of my personal activities is teaching Sunday School at my parish. (I'm Catholic and I teach the 8th grade, which is church history year.)

FYI, part of the reason some churches were against "secret societies" (not necessarily GLOs in particular tho) is that it was thought that the society would (a) distract the person(s) from their involvement with the church and/or (b) would promote and teach ideals that were directly in conflict w/ their faith, thus forcing the person to make a choice. The ones I'm particularly aware of that came up in this discussion were the KKK (obviously), the Know-Nothings, the FreeMasons, and the Odd Fellows.

The Catholic church in the USA came up with their own solution to this issue and some related ones: create a secret/private society of their own, the Knights of Columbus, which is basically a Catholic fraternity. My husband is both a 4th Degree KoC and a KA Order brother. According to him, there is no conflict between the vows he took in either one.

Just a little info. Hope it helps.
Adrienne

[Kevin]

As I recall, the Catholic Church has reversed its opinion on secret societies like the freemasons.

It used to mean excommunication.

[adduncan]

ktsnake--

I just looked it up in a number of resources (ie, NewAdvent.com and the Catholic Encyclopedia.)

According to those sources, the ban against Freemasonry membership for Catholics is still enforced and was clarified in 1983.

(Just as a clarification--I'm only posting information on the subject, and there is no intent to preach, evangelize, etc.)

Adrienne

[poodleNtraining]

Well, my grandparents were greek, and they wee very Christian. Most orgs that I've been exposed to have been very God-centered. NOt to say that they all have to be, but for those who are Christian, being in a GLO does not mean that you're going to hell. It depends on your personal reasons for joining, what your org does and how you personally participate. I think that also, just the fact that the orgs use Greek letters makes people automatically think "pagan" because Greeks used to be pagans. But if you think about it, some of the first Christians were who, GREEKS. So the greek letters are not just "pagan" in nature.

The only thing really negative with reference to an org and Christianity has been with Freemasonry. I know that they aren't a GLO, but they're considered to be in the same category. I found this article about it, I'll post it for discussion sake. I'm not saying that this is my view or anything, but this is what I found.


Freemasonry
Freemasonry is one of the cultic groups that in these end times have been springing up. It spouts scriptures and sometimes has a veneer of truth, however it can be spotted. They have a defective view of Christ, His deity and His work. They specialize in extra Biblical revelations and have trans-local totalitarian leaders in authority. Commonly they rule the group by "revelations" and "prophecies." Usually there is some form of a pyramiding control of the followers. Freemasons have 33 degrees among their ranks.

Most develop semi-secret sessions for teaching the initiated followers. Exclusivism is taught and there is much violation of the rules of sound Bible interpretation by use of vague passages and semantic juggling to "prove" what the cult teaches.

Fear is the power which holds the group together. Insecurity and maneuvering for power, position and advantage is constant. The misery of being swallowed into such a group is incredible.

Cultic leaders range from openly operating con men to sincere zealots driven by demonic power to achieve their ends. Moral decay and laxness always sets in sooner or later, usually at the top echelons of leadership. Many times the followers are lashed into an ascetic and self sacrificing life style, while leaders secretly indulge their own whims and desires.

The disillusionment and disenchantment which eventually comes destroys many. People who have honestly given their all to a cause, only to discover they have been sold out, have great difficulty readjusting and being able to believe in anybody or anything.

Pagan societies sponsored public worship directed toward idols, while the priests, rulers and philosophers always maintained a different, secret worship centered around a sun god. This latter was designated as the "Mysteries." These "Mysteries" were revived by the "Masonic fathers" at the beginning of the eighteenth century.

In other words what formerly constituted the mysteries of Osiris, Baal, Bacchus or Dionysius is today the mysteries of Freemasonry. Dr. Mackey, Masonic authority, states they are the "same in substance, being derived from one source and celebrated in honor of the same deities."

A converted witch relates that the initiation into Masonry (with two minor changes at the end) is identical to that of witchcraft! By embracing such rituals and vows, rooted in ancient witchcraft and demonic worship, men and women are placing themselves under occult power. The secret signs, passwords, hand grips, etc. which are so highly prized, in reality brings lives under secret bonds and churches are paralyzed where these secret loyalties exist and the Holy Spirit cannot flow freely. Jesus said He had done all things openly and had done nothing in secret, a startling contrast to secret orders which enforce secrecy on their members. We are commanded to renounce the hidden things of darkness Roman 13:12.

Baal was the same as Phoenician Moloch, the Greek Tyrian Hercules (Freemasonry call him Tyrian Architect). He was worshipped on the high places and this is the reason for the "upper chamber" lodge meetings to "worship celestial bodies." According to accredited Masonic historians, the lodge claims to be a revival of the ancient philosophy of Egypt, Phonecia and other Pagan nations. These all practiced a secret worship in honor of a sun god (Lucifer).

Freemasonry is a wicked system of sworn deception, fraud and cunning craftiness from beginning to end. Promoters are always careful, at first, to keep the real meaning of the pretended mysteries in the background, at least until the initiate has taken the Master Masons obligation. By that time he should be so bound that he will not revolt against the bondage he has unsuspectingly moved into.

The Lodge teaches that its three support pillars are Wisdom, Strength and Beauty, and these are borrowed directly from Hindu Mysteries in the initiation of Brahma. The Worshipful Master represents rising sun (east); Senior Warden, setting sun, (west); Junior Warden, the sun at Meredian (south). In every symbol, ceremony and emblem of Freemasonry we are confronted with nothing but the sun god (Lucifer), that ancient Baal worship in every religion from the Druids to Hinduism.

Masons changed names in the Egyptian mysteries from Osiris to Hiram Abiff but retained a similar legend for the initiations. They burned their manuscripts in 1720, interspersed the names of Hiram and Solomon to secure acceptance by Jew and gentile and appropriated the Bible and Apostle John to give it a "Christian" veneer. "Freemasonry both in whole and in part, is literally and truly the secret worship of Baal, or the sun god."

In Deuteronomy 4: 19 God clearly states: When you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars - all the heavenly array - do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshipping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."

God in Deuteronomy 17:2-3 states: If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns that the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of His covenant, and contrary to my command has worshipped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky.

[CUPrez]

Speaking of Christianity and Greek Life... There are quite a few Christian sororities and fraternities that were founded by Christians for Christians.

This doesn' t mean that there are not Christians in other organization, because there are! In fact, my own parents belong to other Greek organizations that do not necessarily have a Christian base, and they are very much Christian.

But, there is something to be said for organizations that hold this as their ideal and that unswervingly and unashamedly proclaim Christ and Him crucified. It bothers me when organizations say they have a Christian foundation, but you go to their websites and see ladies with their behinds hanging out. Why even fake it?

CUPrez, Nat'l Pres.
DELTA PSI EPSILON CHRISTIAN SORORITY, INC.
Established in 1992

[MTSUGURL]

It bothers me when organizations say they have a Christian foundation, but you go to their websites and see ladies with their behinds hanging out. Why even fake it?

I agree. One of the fraternities here, which I won't name, has a tradition that when a guy lavaliers his gf they tie the brother naked to a tree and leave him there after they pour stuff all over him, then call his gf to come pick him up. They did this right outside the window of my old apt. Quite an eyeful on one occasion. They were founded on Christian principles. This to me says they're not living up to the ideals that their founders set up. If your org has a christian foundation, this should be clear by your conduct. Maybe that's just me...

Crystal