Oscars.... "Sorority racist"

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

While institutional racism is sometimes inextricably linked with classism, it's rather unfair to intimate that black/Latino automatically means "unable to get recs," because it's just as likely that a working-class white student would face the same difficulties. The institution is just as classist as it is racist.

I don't think that's true, but even if it is, it doesn't somehow erase the institutional racism.

[Sciencewoman]

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

While being a legacy, in some sense, can only help you if all parties are playing by the book, flaunting your legacy status is such a grave faux pas that you could be blackballed.

And again, for those orgs where a recommendation is necessary, it's more likely that a black student from an underresourced school system had one teacher at some point who was a member of their org of interest. Remember that there are far less NPHC orgs than the others.

It's the "knowing the unwritten rules that members know" that I find compelling -- for NPC and NPHC -- it does seem to give an advantage to those with connections or enhanced prior knowledge. I have seen the mentoring teacher/administrator in action amongst two faculty members I know who are members of a particular NPHC sorority -- they are definitely involved in the recruitment process.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't think that's true, but even if it is, it doesn't somehow erase the institutional racism.

The cost of membership is prohibitive to many women, and we really aren't doing anything about that. You have to be able to pay. I have seen this issue come up frequently, but not overt racism (not to say it doesn't happen, just that I haven't witnessed it personally as an issue with active members).

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

It's the "knowing the unwritten rules that members know" that I find compelling -- for NPC and NPHC -- it does seem to give an advantage to those with connections or enhanced prior knowledge. I have seen the mentoring teacher/administrator in action amongst two faculty members I know who are members of a particular NPHC sorority -- they are definitely involved in the recruitment process.

I understand what you're saying, but for clarification, are you trying to compare it to structural racism or nah?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't think that's true, but even if it is, it doesn't somehow erase the institutional racism.

Did I say it erased the institutional racism? I still find that NPC sorority life is just as classist as it is racist. I did not write that it is not racist at all, did I?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Historically white sororities and fraternities are institutionally racist by their very nature. That doesn't mean that individual chapters and members aren't doing good things, but if your organization favors legacies or women with recs, you are automatically expressing a preference for white membership.

Aside from any racial implications, legacy status and recs have always kind of bothered me. And again, I'll preface this by saying that I come from a small recruitment system.

While both legacy status and recs most likely helped in the past, I think they're becoming less and less important in the grand scheme of things. Not that I'm arguing that getting recs isn't important for a successful recruitment (in some places), but that their overall influence has been lost. The same goes for legacy status, as there are now too many legacies going through recruitment. And I know some sororities require that legacies make it to a certain round in the recruitment process, which can sometimes tie the hands of individual chapters. But I won't delve into specific NPC sorority policies here.

The legacy problem is clear: with the exponential increase in membership year after year, there will only be more and more legacies, the "specialness" goes away, and the numbers become too much to handle.

As for recs: I've asked it here before and I'll ask it again... why can't a recommendation come from a teacher, a coach, a pastor, an employer, a mentor, etc. of a PNM instead of a sorority alumna? Why does it make more sense for a girl to desperately search for a rec from anyone and everyone, just to check off a box that essentially says, "This person barely knows me, but they think I'm great!" than to have a formal recommendation from a person who knows the girl and can truly vouch for her?

I think that sororities miss out on the opportunity to meet some amazing women because of legacies/recs. And no, I'm not saying that chapters are struggling for members and NEED more women to sign up for recruitment. I'm saying that there are probably some fantastic potential members who don't have the same opportunities as others, who start out at the bottom or behind, who don't know anything about recs, who get cut for not being related to a member, or for a number of other reasons that really are a shame.

[Sen's Revenge]

Of course a child of color who is adopted by a white family would have access to recs and legacy status. That's the privilege of whiteness in this case.

The African American valedictorian, volleyball/women's basketball captain, student government president of a predominately black DC Public School will not have the same opportunity. She is not only far less likely to have NPC members in her family, but she's unlikely to have NPC members in her community.

A Latina with similar credentials would be even worse off, as her community and family is less likely to be college educated at all in a city like DC, so while the black achiever has the potential for NPHC connections, the Latina achiever has none.

The institution itself is actually racist. This is before you even get to the question of whether "Rhonda" is "Kappa" or not.

[NinjaPoodle]

Originally Posted by amillionlights

That's not what DeltaBetaBaby is saying. It's truly great that your grandchildren in your situation will have recs/legacy status - it's wonderful for them! But historically, people of color have not had the same opportunities to become members of historically white GLOs as white people. Therefore, as a whole, they have fewer opportunities to be legacies/find recs. It's an institutional issue, not an individual one.

Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge

Of course a child of color who is adopted by a white family would have access to recs and legacy status. That's the privilege of whiteness in this case.

The African American valedictorian, volleyball/women's basketball captain, student government president of a predominately black DC Public School will not have the same opportunity. She is not only far less likely to have NPC members in her family, but she's unlikely to have NPC members in her community.

A Latina with similar credentials would be even worse off, as her community and family is less likely to be college educated at all in a city like DC, so while the black achiever has the potential for NPHC connections, the Latina achiever has none.

The institution itself is actually racist. This is before you even get to the question of whether "Rhonda" is "Kappa" or not.

Exactly.

[NWguy]

1) Doesn't this vary by region? In California and Pacific Northwest, there is a significant percentage of Asian students joining fraternities and sororities. In Florida, where my brother went to college, there were quite a few Hispanic men in fraternities.

And I believe there's a slight increase of East Indian students also going through recruitment each year, at least from some of the recruitment videos posted online from my fraternity.

2) I know that some African-American students choose to join multi-cultural fraternities; so they haven't been discriminated against, they simply just chose to join those fraternities instead.

People say that fraternities and sororities have been, and continue to be, racist. But maybe it's really because the number of minority students going through recruitment is low to begin with.

[Sciencewoman]

I'm not sure when recs became formalized/institutionalized...that would be a good question to ask nyapbp. I do believe they perpetuate the status quo. Women don't even know to get them if they're not "hip" to the expectation. However, I think it's like having 2 recs to join a country club, or having members nominate new members for other organizations. "Recs" for any organization are not geared toward helping the "upwardly mobile" or diversifying the membership -- generally, they're geared toward recruiting those who will "fit in" with the existing expectations.

May I ask if there is some of this within NPHC groups? I've had the perception that there are very high standards for membership, legacies are valued, and those who are new to the intake expectations probably aren't going to fare as well...being clueless could ruin someone's chances.

[Sen's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

I'm not sure when recs became formalized/institutionalized...that would be a good question to ask nyapbp. I do believe they perpetuate the status quo. Women don't even know to get them if they're not "hip" to the expectation. However, I think it's like having 2 recs to join a country club, or having members nominate new members for other organizations. "Recs" for any organization are not geared toward helping the "upwardly mobile" or diversifying the membership -- generally, they're geared toward recruiting those who will "fit in" with the existing expectations.

May I ask if there is some of this within NPHC groups? I've had the perception that there are very high standards for membership, legacies are valued, and those who are new to the intake expectations probably aren't going to fare as well...being clueless could ruin someone's chances.

There are some parallels but I don't think they are rooted in class.

For example:

While being a legacy, in some sense, can only help you if all parties are playing by the book, flaunting your legacy status is such a grave faux pas that you could be blackballed.

I think that aside from the cost, the various NPHC selection processes are fairly blind to social status. Service and achievement are transcendent.

And again, for those orgs where a recommendation is necessary, it's more likely that a black student from an underresourced school system had one teacher at some point who was a member of their org of interest. Remember that there are far less NPHC orgs than the others.

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

I'm not sure when recs became formalized/institutionalized...that would be a good question to ask nyapbp. I do believe they perpetuate the status quo. Women don't even know to get them if they're not "hip" to the expectation. However, I think it's like having 2 recs to join a country club, or having members nominate new members for other organizations. "Recs" for any organization are not geared toward helping the "upwardly mobile" or diversifying the membership -- generally, they're geared toward recruiting those who will "fit in" with the existing expectations.

May I ask if there is some of this within NPHC groups? I've had the perception that there are very high standards for membership, legacies are valued, and those who are new to the intake expectations probably aren't going to fare as well...being clueless could ruin someone's chances.

Not that long ago, "getting recs" was not something that a PNM did. The onus was on the sorority to get a rec for her. PNMs weren't expected to do anything except show up for recruitment - all the rec stuff was with the chapter requesting recs from alumnae in the girl's hometown.

But with huge numbers of PNMs going through, there's no way a chapter could request and get recs on every girl going through. That's why the practice has become for the PNM to get her own recs. Chapters still request them from alumnae, though.

[Dionysus]

I don't mind NPC/IFC. I joined a sorority to get my Mrs. Degree. I didn't even bother going to classes or hanging out with the sisters. I just hung out with our "brother" fraternity. Them white boys were loaded! ...well at least their families were.

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

I don't mind NPC/IFC. I joined a sorority to get my Mrs. Degree. I didn't even bother going to classes or hanging out with the sisters. I just hung out with our "brother" fraternity. Them white boys were loaded! ...well at least their families were.

LOL. I think I went to school with you....

[Sciencewoman]

I also note that the majority of schools where recs are a must are located in the South. Every rec I've ever written has been for a PNM going to a southern school. Just pondering if there's any significance there.

[jolene]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

I also note that the majority of schools where recs are a must are located in the South. Every rec I've ever written has been for a PNM going to a southern school. Just pondering if there's any significance there.

I'm not an expert on how competitive rush is everywhere, but with SEC schools, it's VERY competitive with sometimes almost a 1,000 girls going through and my guess is that you have to make yourself stand out in a good way. I didn't go to an SEC uni, but know many who did and went through rush. Holy cow. I don't know how they survived. lol