Death Penalty-Change your mind yet? - Page 3

Rudey · #1 08-09-2002, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DWAlphaGam

I'm definitely feeling you there, shadokat. I'm not too happy about starting my nighttime grad school classes in the city while all of this is happening. It really makes me want to stay in my little suburban haven.

BTW, I am for the death penalty, but only after a very extensive investigation. Also only for very brutal/premeditated crimes. If some sick bastard rapes and kills a little kid, I don't believe in putting him up in basically a hotel where he gets free food, free cable, free access to a gym, free school, etc. How is that punishment? People who do things like that should not be allowed to exist anymore.

I understand this is your opinion and simply YOUR opinion as you are entitled to it. But the list above includes men who had extensive investigations.

And jail isn't simply about punishment. There is also rehabiliation involved isn't there?

-Rudey
--You may also want to look at my two posts to JustAMom.

shadokat · #2 08-09-2002, 11:23 PM

Rudey--

I can appreciate your thoughts on rehabilitation, but I personally think that rehabilitation doesn't work nearly as often as we think. If it did, we wouldn't have laws like the three strikes law. There are statistics on recidivism of criminals who go through rehabilitation programs, and some show they don't work.

Rudey · #3 08-09-2002, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
Rudey--

I can appreciate your thoughts on rehabilitation, but I personally think that rehabilitation doesn't work nearly as often as we think. If it did, we wouldn't have laws like the three strikes law. There are statistics on recidivism of criminals who go through rehabilitation programs, and some show they don't work.

I didn't have any "thoughts" on rehabilitation in that post. Once again, one of the aims of jail is rehabilitation regardless of whether you believe in rehabilitation or not.

Honestly, I'd argue with you on the three strikes thing if I had the time right now...saying they were punished rather than rehabilitated, but I won't

And I don't like statistics when I'm not actually given the stats...but to each their own.

-Rudey
--I am going to go drinking now...toodles and here's to hoping you all have a fun night.

KillarneyRose · #4 08-10-2002, 12:54 AM

Tracy's thoughts on the death penalty:

1. I can absolutely guarantee one hundred percent that if a criminal is executed, he/she will never, ever harm another person again. Talk about favorable odds!

2. I understand that criminal cases are considered crimes "against the people" and not against individuals, but I still feel that the victim's family should have some (much, actually) say in whether the death penalty is applied or not.

3. Some death penalty opponants feel that it is applied unfairly toward minorities and men and therefore should be abolished. I don't know if that's true; I have never read up on the subject. If it is, however, that indicates to me that it should be used more widely, not less.

4. Opponants also complain that it's state sponsored revenge. I personally don't think revenge is that bad a thing but, hey, that's just me.

RedAngel · #5 08-10-2002, 02:06 AM

I'm against the death penalty for the same reasons that Katy and Vanda mentioned.

Rudey · #6 08-10-2002, 02:25 AM

1. I can absolutely guarantee one hundred percent that if a criminal is locked up under careful supervision with certain precautions taken, he/she will never, ever harm another person again. Talk about favorable odds!

2. I thought that family members are often able to give their opinions. I have heard of stories where a family member miraculously learns to somehow forgive for some unbelievable reason and so their statement is read to the judge and jury. But this is something I'm not actually 100% sure about so I will understand if you refuse to accept it.

3. Now you are simply going into one of my previous arguments of differentiating between reality/ideal systems (See above reply to JustAMom). In reality there are way too many faults and your proposing to eliminate the racial/gender/socio-economic factors by making everyone deserving of death, vulnerable to it. Yet the best evidence possible is DNA and even that has holes in it...a human works with the DNA (one state had a large number of cases of DNA tampering).

4. The revenge thing falls within my argument above regarding the ideal as well. In such a system, you know who did what and how they did it without one bit of error. Such a system is so perfect that it only could exist in a world so perfect that no crime exists. But your argument for liquidating someone in such a system is just as valid as someone for not...just an opinion no?

-Rudey
--I feel like I keep talking in this thread for no reason. Does anyone even care what I say? For shizzle I wish the pub was open past 1.

Quote:

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Tracy's thoughts on the death penalty:

1. I can absolutely guarantee one hundred percent that if a criminal is executed, he/she will never, ever harm another person again. Talk about favorable odds!

2. I understand that criminal cases are considered crimes "against the people" and not against individuals, but I still feel that the victim's family should have some (much, actually) say in whether the death penalty is applied or not.

3. Some death penalty opponants feel that it is applied unfairly toward minorities and men and therefore should be abolished. I don't know if that's true; I have never read up on the subject. If it is, however, that indicates to me that it should be used more widely, not less.

4. Opponants also complain that it's state sponsored revenge. I personally don't think revenge is that bad a thing but, hey, that's just me.

justamom · #7 08-10-2002, 07:30 AM

Killarney Rose-1. I can absolutely guarantee one hundred percent that if a criminal is executed, he/she will never, ever harm another person again. Talk about favorable odds!

Of all the things stated on this board, this is an absolute truth.

There are always changes in the courts-things overturned, rotating seats from liberal to conservative. So there is always a chance of a release.

Victims rights-Sharon Tate's mother (Manson Murders) was the FIRST family member to be allowed to speak at a parole hearing.
She worked long and hard with an advocates' group to achieve this.

Rehabilitation-I don't think this is an option once you cross into
the realm of crime I believe most are picturing in their mind.
FOX did a piece on it a while ago and the bottom line wasn't so much that it DIDN'T work, just no evidence it DID.

Rudey, when people post with good, logical opinions,(as you have in this thread) of course people care. In the past, we have looked at possible reasons-studies-all kinds of things that support each view. Not that it changed anyone's mind, but it made for a good debate.

James · #8 08-10-2002, 08:55 AM

KilarneyRose and Justamom,

KilarneyRose, Number One--- I am not going to argue with you that execution reduces the ability to commit another crime to zero. It does.

I am not sure that argument alone validates the Government executing its Citizens. t sets an interesting precedent for killing off citizens for other reasons. If we executed for much less, such as drug use, Assault etc . . there would be much less murder.

Rudey · #9 08-10-2002, 04:14 PM

James, I'd like to add my thoughts on this:

If we massacred the entire population of this world, I can personally guarantee that not one more murder would occur after that. Yes we'd be killing all the bad people and many more of the good people as well.

Isn't this exactly the reality of our current situation? Haven't innocent men been freed after many years (see above lists)? Haven't innocent men died in jail (see above list)? Haven't innocent men also been executed?

-Rudey
--And no, JustAMom my comments mean nothing. They are utterly worthless and carry no merit. In the end, what is the point of a "debate"?

Quote:

Originally posted by James
KilarneyRose and Justamom,

KilarneyRose, Number One--- I am not going to argue with you that execution reduces the ability to commit another crime to zero. It does.

I am not sure that argument alone validates the Government executing its Citizens. t sets an interesting precedent for killing off citizens for other reasons. If we executed for much less, such as drug use, Assault etc . . there would be much less murder.

valkyrie · #10 08-10-2002, 04:32 PM

Rudey, I absolutely agree with you. A while back on the "Damasa you started it thread" I posted a link to a series of Chicago Tribune articles on the failure of the death penalty in Illinois alone. I was shocked and horrified by what I read, but now that I work in criminal law I can't say I have a hard time believing any of it, especially the stuff about police and prosecutor misconduct. I'd repost the link here, but honestly I'm too lazy right now to find it.

And to anyone who thinks that jail is a country club, I extend to you the invitation to come with me to county jail when I go there to visit my clients. You might not be able to see all of it, but my clients can tell you what it's like being in there -- and these are guys charged with relatively minor crimes, who have not even been convicted yet (and maybe never will be).

ThetaLove · #11 08-10-2002, 05:47 PM

I am oppposed to the death penalty. However, thank God that no one that I know has been killed by a murderer because I don't know if I would feel the same way. Another thing, I don't think that jail cells should have any comforts other than a bed and they should share bathrooms, sinks, etc. Criminals should be made to do work that would help the individual state. No workout rooms, etc.

justamom · #12 08-11-2002, 08:07 AM

--And no, JustAMom my comments mean nothing. They are utterly worthless and carry no merit. In the end, what is the point of a "debate"?

You know Rudey, you are right. In fact, no comment on this board
or any other for that matter amounts to a hill of beans. In fact, why don't we just shut GC down and go visit our "real" neighbors and friends.

Lots of ways to communicate with people and like a lot have said on this thread, you can gain insight into other members and maybe even learn something. I know that is interesting to me and by the success of this site, I believe it is interesting to others.

This is just one topic of HUNDREDS where I agree with Shadokat and KillarneyRose more than valkyrie, you or others. There have been NUMEROUS topics where I couldn't agree MORE with valkyrie
or ThetaLove. It's called individuality.

A debate is one method of communication and when you look at the controversial threads, you can see people like to share their opinions with others. In most (but admittedly not all) cases I try to keep an open mind and if I'm lucky, gain some insight.

Rudey · #13 08-11-2002, 02:22 PM

Ma'am, I'm taken and I'd appreciate it if you stopped with the sexual comments. Thank you.

Anyway, how do you guys feel about executing persons with mental retardation? And also, how do you feel about executing children (below the age of 18)?

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by justamom
--And no, JustAMom my comments mean nothing. They are utterly worthless and carry no merit. In the end, what is the point of a "debate"?

You know Rudey, you are right. In fact, no comment on this board
or any other for that matter amounts to a hill of beans. In fact, why don't we just shut GC down and go visit our "real" neighbors and friends.

Lots of ways to communicate with people and like a lot have said on this thread, you can gain insight into other members and maybe even learn something. I know that is interesting to me and by the success of this site, I believe it is interesting to others.

This is just one topic of HUNDREDS where I agree with Shadokat and KillarneyRose more than valkyrie, you or others. There have been NUMEROUS topics where I couldn't agree MORE with valkyrie
or ThetaLove. It's called individuality.

A debate is one method of communication and when you look at the controversial threads, you can see people like to share their opinions with others. In most (but admittedly not all) cases I try to keep an open mind and if I'm lucky, gain some insight.

DWAlphaGam · #14 08-11-2002, 03:25 PM

Rudey,

Being a biology major in college makes me a firm believer in DNA evidence. Sure, it can sometimes be tampered with, but it is the most conclusive way to prove someone guilty or not guilty. By extensive investigation, I mean one with plenty of hard evidence, not one with eyewitnesses or anything like that, because people are much more easily swayed than scientific evidence.

No, I do not believe in executing someone who is mentally handicapped. They are incapable of understanding the law. People under 18...that's a different story. I wouldn't go around saying we should execute kids, but I also think 18 is an arbitrary age. Who's to say that the day you turn 18, you're an adult? Is someone who's 17 that much different from someone who's 18 or 19? I think the punisment should depend on the case.

I only believe in the death penalty for very brutal, premeditated crimes (for example, mass murderers, serial killers or child killers). I don't think people capable of those crimes are capable of rehabilitation. In those cases, I do not think that tax-paying, law-abiding citizens should have to support these monsters by keeping them in jail. And yes, jail is about punishment. If you do something wrong, you should be punished. Otherwise, what's the point of the justice system? Ok, you killed someone, let's send you to therapy so that maybe you can return to the outside world and live your life even though you ruined other people's lives. I think that's ridiculous.

Keep your comments coming; anything that makes people think is definitely worthwhile.

~DW

Rudey · #15 08-11-2002, 03:52 PM

"Sure it can sometimes be tampered with"

I'm sure you'd be willing to go to a trial where evidence can be tampered with. What does it matter...it's only your life right?

Also DNA technology was used to prove criminals (oh we all know OJ was) were not guilty. That means nothing to you that a rich man can destroy all DNA evidence while a poor man sits scared because a group of men want his brain cells ruptured to tell the world they caught the criminal and deserve their trust and votes at the next election for keeping them safe?

-Rudey
--Being a human makes me a firm believer that people are not perfect.

Quote:

Originally posted by DWAlphaGam
Rudey,

Being a biology major in college makes me a firm believer in DNA evidence. Sure, it can sometimes be tampered with, but it is the most conclusive way to prove someone guilty or not guilty. By extensive investigation, I mean one with plenty of hard evidence, not one with eyewitnesses or anything like that, because people are much more easily swayed than scientific evidence.

No, I do not believe in executing someone who is mentally handicapped. They are incapable of understanding the law. People under 18...that's a different story. I wouldn't go around saying we should execute kids, but I also think 18 is an arbitrary age. Who's to say that the day you turn 18, you're an adult? Is someone who's 17 that much different from someone who's 18 or 19? I think the punisment should depend on the case.

I only believe in the death penalty for very brutal, premeditated crimes (for example, mass murderers, serial killers or child killers). I don't think people capable of those crimes are capable of rehabilitation. In those cases, I do not think that tax-paying, law-abiding citizens should have to support these monsters by keeping them in jail. And yes, jail is about punishment. If you do something wrong, you should be punished. Otherwise, what's the point of the justice system? Ok, you killed someone, let's send you to therapy so that maybe you can return to the outside world and live your life even though you ruined other people's lives. I think that's ridiculous.

Keep your comments coming; anything that makes people think is definitely worthwhile.

~DW