Why are recs absolutely necessary at some schools, while not expected at others?

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

This lawyer disagrees with any reading of FERPA that limits its application to the sharing of written records. I have written FERPA releases for a major university. If a school employee's "knowledge of that student" is based on the fact that she gets to see the student's academic/disciplinary records in the course of her work, then FERPA applies to her "knowledge" and the personal opinion resulting therefrom. For example, if in the course of my work as a guidance counselor (or teacher or principal), I see that Suzy was internally reprimanded for cheating junior year, it is both unethical and a FERPA violation for me to then tell others orally, "Suzy is untrustworthy, don't bid her." There doesn't have to be any written record shared, or any mental health guidance relationship with Suzy, for that rule to kick in. If you only know she's untrustworthy because you were allowed to see her confidential records, you have to keep it to yourself.

Whether someone would actually be sued, in practice, is a different question. Both HIPAA and FERPA are violated every day around family dinner tables, and that's never going to lead to a lawsuit. But I think it is wrong to violate this rule in the recruitment context whether a lawsuit is likely or not. If I'm counsel to the school, I want everyone keeping confidential information inside the institution, period. The "Suzy is untrustworthy" example above would be a firing offense at the university where I've worked.

Thank you, Low C Sharp -- appreciate your legal expertise based on experience with FERPA.
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[adpiucf]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

If a school employee's "knowledge of that student" is based on the fact that she gets to see the student's academic/disciplinary records in the course of her work, then FERPA applies to her "knowledge" and the personal opinion resulting therefrom. For example, if in the course of my work as a guidance counselor (or teacher or principal), I see that Suzy was internally reprimanded for cheating junior year, it is both unethical and a FERPA violation for me to then tell others orally, "Suzy is untrustworthy, don't bid her." There doesn't have to be any written record shared, or any mental health guidance relationship with Suzy, for that rule to kick in. If you only know she's untrustworthy because you were allowed to see her confidential records, you have to keep it to yourself.

Absolutely agree with this narrow example provided and respect your experience. I will continue to contend that the hypothetical posed by the other poster implying blanket liability for saying anything about a student was incorrect.

I guess this is where I turn on my heel and flounce dramatically?

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

Absolutely agree with this narrow example provided and respect your experience. I will continue to contend that the hypothetical posed by the other poster implying blanket liability for saying anything about a student was incorrect.

I guess this is where I turn on my heel and flounce dramatically?

Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by adpiucf

I am not trying to offend you, and I feel certain you aren't trying to offend me. I think the difference may lie not only in how some schools value recs over others, but also in how one sorority values recommendations over another in membership selection. Every sorority has different criteria that they value over others. A recommendation doesn't guarantee someone a bid to a sorority, but it is something considered in the process and some organizations may place more weight on the rec than other sororities. I guess I am now understanding that for some sororities, a rec is just a rec, and for others, it carries varying degrees of weight in actual selection.

ETA: When I say "value," I mean actual valuation (e.g., predetermined weight) of a factor considered in the selection process, not that you don't value the opinions of your alumnae. For example, every chapter puts value (weight) into a minimum GPA.

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Good thoughts, ADPiUCF

Maybe that is what is at play here. Some groups, as a whole, do not value alumnae recommendations. It is not the chapter, but the entire organization? This is something I really was not aware of and would make sense.

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I think this is well said. We wouldn't all be fighting over the same PNMs if a good candidate for one isn't also a good candidate for others. I think that we, as NPCers have far more in common than differences.

And I'd still like to hear from some more actives. Where's Old Row?

While it may be true that some orgs don't hold a rec in the same regard as others, within the orgs that do, there are still regional differences. If there was an actual valuation on it as adpiucf refers to, if nobody has a rec, then it is a level playing field. If everybody has a wonderful rec, it is a level playing field. At these very competitive schools, I'm sure just having a rec doesn't put a young woman on a level playing field, because the quality of the rec matters.

Nobody wants to get too far into membership selection but I would hazard a guess that, like college or job recommendation letters, the quality of the opinion within the rec becomes obvious and important. I've only written recs for young women I know personally that I could absolutely say would contribute greatly to ANY organization. If I wrote one that was less gushing, it would be obvious.

I went to a school where we knew what they were, but rarely received them. We were always asked about them by traveling consultants "Where are your recs?" The reality is, here, in this state, sorority membership is not valued by the general society. It is not required to get into the Junior League or be in the higher social circles. In fact, nobody really cares about social circles in this area. It is not a source of pride, it tends to be something you have to defend.

In the past two decades, it was nearly impossible to find someone walking around the U of Michigan campus in letters. There were these big huge houses with letters on them. You never saw people wearing letters though. It was NOT a source of pride. They didn't want to defend their choice all the time. That has been changing in this decade, and that's a good thing! But, all most people know up here is what they see in the media- hazing and drinking. Because of that, people don't talk about their greek experiences much outside of their group.

Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...

[kchaptergphib]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...

I'd say a fair amount of what AGDee said above applies to the older chapter, Big Ten (13?) campuses. There are absolutely women who know they want to participate in FR before they come to school, but I'd say it's less than 50 percent, probably closer to 30 (at least, at the 3 schools I've been involved with in the past decade).
That said, just because a campus isn't on the list of RECS REQUIRED, doesn't mean recs are uncommon. I don't think it's out of line for me to say that two years ago, every single woman on our bid list had a rec written for her prior to recruitment. Now, that was unusual, but I'd say last year, probably 2/3rds of the bid list had recs. Again, that brings into question what quality of recs did each woman have? I'm sure it varied. But even this Yankee knows what is a blah/lame/waste of time rec, what is a good rec, and what is a great rec. Thankfully I have yet to receive a "cannot recommend" rec.
There were certainly ladies with great recs who did not make it to later rounds and (in normal years) there were obviously ladies who did not have recs that made it to the bid list.
I just want to make it clear that, at the old, Midwestern campuses & chapters that I've worked with, we did receive recs, we did use them, and we did weigh them individually along with all the other info we had on the PNMs. I'm sure it varies from school to school, organization to organization and chapter to chapter, but I (and I believe, the actives) found them useful.
Just my perspective

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.

Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.

I'm swerving still --

Thanks, gee_ess. Fortunately the vast majority of his teachers have been wonderfully supportive, and I think not at all sorry that (especially one) particular individual’s unprofessional behavior was exposed.

Since his initial bluff was to refuse to meet with me without including the entire teaching team and administrators, I complied with his wish and scheduled the meeting. I'm sure it was disconcerting to finally meet with a parent, who has your snarky emails in hand, in front of the uninvolved staff that you involved via email and insisted all attend.

Turns out he was considerably taller in email.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I know we're not talking about Bama or Auburn, but Duke, Vandy, and UVA have large and competitive deferred recruitments. My impression, based mainly on Duke, is that the deferral works in the sense that your reputation on campus plays a much bigger role than recs.

First semester reputation is definitely primary at Vandy.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

This. It's just tradition now and changing to a system without recs would be as likely as SEC chapters giving up their tailgating spots on gameday.

Originally Posted by amIblue?

Well, now you're just talking crazy.