LSAT's

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And which I agree with Kevin is bunk. I know morons who went to Harvard. I know very good legal scholars who went to schools that don't make the top 100 list.

Hell, I know VERY intelligent people who never went to college at all!

Low C and KDCat - you're making assumptions about a person's intelligence/ability based solely on what school they attended. That's ridiculous, regardless of what about them you're trying to measure.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Hell, I know VERY intelligent people who never went to college at all!

Low C and KDCat - you're making assumptions about a person's intelligence/ability based solely on what school they attended. That's ridiculous, regardless of what about them you're trying to measure.

My grandmother was the smartest person I've ever known and she never went to college.

That said, I would not hire or even interview a lawyer who went to Cooley or John Marshall or similar. You might find a diamond in the rough, but it's not likely.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If he was straight out of school, maybe you'd have something--and I'm not even sold on that. The difference between the actual instruction going on at various law schools of different tiers is not all that different.

This is someone who likely has a very lengthy resume though. To simply assume that because he graduated from Cooley, he's not a great legal scholar is assuming an awful lot without really any evidence to back it up.

Respectfully, I've worked with judges and lawyers who have gone to schools from every level. I've known great judges and great lawyers from schools at every level. The quality of teaching is good at most schools. The quality of students isn't, however. There is a big difference between students at Cooley and students at a Tier 1 school. I'm sure there are good students at Cooley. On the whole, though, they're not as good as students at better schools.

Edit to add: The quality of teaching at Tier 1 is better than at Cooley, though. I took classes from people who were the leading scholars in their fields. Many of them wrote the textbooks that were being used in the schools in the lower tiers. It's a different experience.

I said "probably," not "definitely," BTW. He may be a great legal scholar. However, most state judges get where they are going on the basis of political connections, not merit, so I sort of doubt it.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Respectfully, I've worked with judges and lawyers who have gone to schools from every level. I've known great judges and great lawyers from schools at every level. The quality of teaching is good at most schools. The quality of students isn't, however. There is a big difference between students at Cooley and students at a Tier 1 school. I'm sure there are good students at Cooley. On the whole, though, they're not as good as students at better schools.

Respectfully, I too have worked with lawyers and judges who have gone to schools from every level. And I have also known great lawyers and judges and lousy lawyers and judges from schools at every level. One thing my experience has taught me is that I can't make any assumptions about a lawyer's ability, much less his or her "legal scholarship," based solely the name of the institution on that lawyer's diploma.

Low C Sharp has a point -- some schools do focus more on practice than on producing "scholars." That said, I have known more than a few "scholars" from so-called top 14 schools that have no clue how to be an effective lawyer (and who I would be horrified to see on the bench), and I know some very competent scholars and jurists who came out of third tier schools that focus on the development of practitioners, not scholars.

But I guess some full disclosure is called for. I find the "tiers" for law schools about as meaningful as the "tiers" for sororities and fraternities -- which is to say, not very meaningful at all. Yes, it probably still matters if you want a seat at the US Supreme Court, and I'm sure it still matters for big firms in places like Washington and New York. But not being in either of those situations, I've never seen much value in the law school tiers beyond bragging rights. So, I tend to roll my eyes a bit when law schools start being compared by tiers and the like.

And just in the interests of full disclosure, my JD is from a so-called "Tier 1" (but not top 14) school.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Respectfully, I've worked with judges and lawyers who have gone to schools from every level.

Respectfully, if you're a lawyer, you know the difference between anecdotal information and real data.

There is a big difference between students at Cooley and students at a Tier 1 school.

The only measurable difference is their undergrad GPA and LSAT scores, neither of which are 100% accurate measures of aptitude or intellect. Are the probably accurate more often than not? Sure. Does that mean a positively brilliant person might have to choose Cooley because they didn't test well and majored in beer for their undergrad degrees? It doesn't.

Edit to add: The quality of teaching at Tier 1 is better than at Cooley, though. I took classes from people who were the leading scholars in their fields. Many of them wrote the textbooks that were being used in the schools in the lower tiers. It's a different experience.

I went to a T4 school and can claim the same thing. Further, being a preeminent scholar in your field does not equate to being a good professor. In fact, some of my best professors were adjuncts. Our adjuncts tended to be partners at the big firms in town or judges. I had a trial practice class taught by a named partner of one of the city's largest firms who has practiced in front of the Criminal Court at The Hague, the SCOTUS, etc. and a federal magistrate who is now the Dean of the school. Unless you had Clarence Darrow, I had a better trial practice experience than you did.

I said "probably," not "definitely," BTW. He may be a great legal scholar. However, most state judges get where they are going on the basis of political connections, not merit, so I sort of doubt it.

The fact is that he's running for the Supreme Court. I'm not sure how your Supreme Court appointments process works. He may be a terrific jurist and scholar. You made a very snotty comment which attempts to categorize him because of where he went to school. Are you now digging your heels in by saying all of your judges are political appointees anyhow and those people tend not to be smart?

I'd hate to be practicing in that jurisdiction.

All that said, what you learn in law school, maybe aside from research habits, has basically nothing to do with the actual practice of law. You leave with a basic understanding of common concepts in the law, how to use and interpret statutes and regs and constitutional principles, but very little idea on how to get a case to trial, or even how to use a PACER account. Judges nor juries GAS where you went to school. Employers might at the entry level, but that's really about it. Unless you're wanting to practice biglaw or be a clerk to someone on a circuit court, a T4 or T3 school may actually be a better degree program for what you want to do.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

You don't think it matters if you want to be a public defender in Grand Rapids? Absolutely, there are some Cooley grads who make it. But your odds are a whole lot better coming out of UM, Michigan State, Notre Dame, etc. This isn't something that only affects hopefuls for big firms in NY and DC.

Perhaps its a regional thing, but where I am, unless someone is looking for a federal appellate clerkship or to go to New York, Washington or Atlanta or join one of the major regional firms, no, it really doesn't matter all that much.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Further, being a preeminent scholar in your field does not equate to being a good professor.

Amen to that! I had a number of professors who "wrote the book." Some were great, others not so much. And having litigated against law professors, I'll add that being an acknowledged scholar in your field doesn't equate to being any good as an advocate for your client.

All that said, what you learn in law school, maybe aside from research habits, has basically nothing to do with the actual practice of law. You leave with a basic understanding of common concepts in the law, how to use and interpret statutes and regs and constitutional principals, but very little idea on how to get a case to trial, or even how to use a PACER account. Judges nor juries GAS where you went to school. Employers might at the entry level, but that's really about it. Unless you're wanting to practice biglaw or be a clerk to someone on a circuit court, a T4 or T3 school may actually be a better degree program for what you want to do.

This.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Perhaps its a regional thing, but where I am, unless someone is looking for a federal appellate clerkship or to go to New York, Washington or Atlanta or join one of the major regional firms, no, it really doesn't matter all that much.

THIS.

(by way of background, I graduated from a law school that is on the edge of the top 50, did the law journal/moot court thing, and have been a civil defense attorney for a large company for 2.5 years)

Here's the thing: if you want to work in a major firm in the areas MC talked about (or Boston, San Fran, etc.), then you'd better have gone to a top 14 or top 20 school (undergrad doesn't matter at much at that point). You'll likely need good grades and journal/moot court experience as well, but honestly you'll need good grades wherever you go.

But, there are plenty of attorneys out there who don't go to top 14 schools.

You can still build a successful law practice having gone to a non-top tier school. Clients these days want smart lawyers who can represent them effectively and can give them "bang for their buck.". Whether they are paying $100 an hour or $1,000 per hour, they want their money's worth. If you're smart, practical, and can do the nuts and bolts (research, writing, problem-solving, negotiating), chances are you'll do ok.

That's not to say the market isn't bad: it is. Some firms look only at T14 schools.

However, if you can be flexible about your expectations, and if you do well in law school, and if you work your tail off, you have a chance.