Lawyers save another chapter

[starang21]

first of all, i'm not even being prejudice here. i'm stating a fact, they're making white people look bad. i didn't even say you had anything to do with it. how about this example.....why was there such a backlash against chinese from whites during the entire spy plane incident? i'm not even chinese, yet i still was messed with. none of those chinese-americans had anything to do with the incident, yet they still got messed with. and no, not from other minorities, but from white people. is it only white people who are allowed to lump other races into one category?

[starang21]

Originally posted by KSig RC



Actually, I agree with you that this is definitely an incident of white people being ignorant, and that said ignorance can lead to white people looking bad, in general, in the eyes of some if allowed to reflect upon an entire race - the key is not making this extension, in my opinion, but I could be wrong. I was making the point extensible to our society in general (ie "all Americans", which was most likely poor hyperbole on my part), and you're going to limit it just to the race propagating the ignorance. Fine, that's your right I suppose - but don't expect ktsnake to implicitly buy your logic, especially when you partially infer that he looks bad b/c of this group of stupid-ass kids running around in costumes.

well, you got my point. i'm not lumping anyone on GC into this category. did i ever say white people are backwards morons? no, i said this incident makes them look like it. i'm not limiting anything. did you see any asian people at that party? any hispanic people? any arab people? no, it was an all white party. only at a party like that would anyone have the gall to try some stuff like that. like i said before, why did the white community lump all of the chinese into one category during the spy plane incident? i'm pretty sure they were thinking about propogating ignorance there, right? and i'm not even messing with white people here, i'm just saying these kids aren't a good representation of your people.

[Kevin]

first of all, i'm not even being prejudice here. i'm stating a fact, they're making white people look bad. i didn't even say you had anything to do with it. how about this example.....why was there such a backlash against chinese from whites during the entire spy plane incident? i'm not even chinese, yet i still was messed with. none of those chinese-americans had anything to do with the incident, yet they still got messed with.

According to dictionary.com...

prej·u·dice Pronunciation Key (prj-ds)
n.

1.
a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

I don't think you get it. Saying that one isolated incedent means that ALL white people look bad is akin to me saying that when I try to get gas in a certain neighborhood and a black lady tries to sell me drugs that makes all black people look like drug dealers.

In truth there are low-life morons no matter what the color of their skin.

If you think that these good 'ol boys playing dress up KKK makes ME look bad than you need to consider that you may be effected by some degree of prejudice against me as a white male.

I don't recall any backlash against chinese americans after that plane incedent... But if something did happen that's exactly what I'm talking about. This is a perfect example of prejudice -- a bunch of yay - hoos that think that if one country doesn't like the USA, the entire race must be the same.

-- What I'm saying is that the above described behavior is something that should be avoided. Especially by anyone claiming to be educated and/or open minded.

[FuzzieAlum]

I think people, when they do negative or bad things, are frequently regarded as "examples" of their group - especially to outsiders. In this case, they were Greeks and white.

It's especially true when their behavior conforms to our suspicions. If a black man is arraigned on murder charges, you know some people think, "Oh, another black male criminal." If a white man is arraigned on the same charges, people don't look to his race - they latch onto the fact that he lived in a trailer park, for example.

And whether we like it or not, lots of people think the NPC and IFC Greeks are a bunch of stuck-up white dumb snobs. So they see a bunch of good ole boys pulling a stupid racist stunt, and it does confirm their stereotypes.

If I do something, someone out there is going to take it as being typical of (take your pick) women, blondes, sorority chicks, AXDs, English majors, whites, liberals, etc., depending on what I do and what context they are viewing me from. Let's say I get drunk and puke at a party; Miss GDI will say, "That makes sorority chicks look stupid," whereas Miss Rival Chapter says, "That makes the AXDs look so bad."

Now I'm not suggesting everyone thinks this way. But a lot of people do, consciously or unconsciously. And I'm certainly not suggesting we OUGHT to think this way.

Hey, as a white person or a Greek, I may not like being represented in someone's mind by these chapters. But I understand that people are going to do it.

[IvySpice]

The thing that bothers me most about this kind of behavior (nooses at a party) is that the brothers wanted to claim both that this was all harmless fun, and that this was a political expression that shouldn't be squelched.

If they actually believe that it's funny that black people used to get lynched in their university town (this is the most charitable "message" I can get from their actions), why don't they stand up and say so? If this is about freedom of expression, why aren't they defending their point of view? Why don't they rent out the campus square and march in their KKK robes if this message is so important?

Finally, the First Amendment certainly applies to organizations at public universities, but threats and harrassment are not protected speech, and it's not hard to see the use of blackface and nooses as a bald threat to black students. I think the constitutional status of this expression, given its time, place, and manner, is open to debate.

IvySpice

[starang21]

Originally posted by ktsnake


According to dictionary.com...

prej·u·dice Pronunciation Key (prj-ds)
n.

1.
a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

I don't think you get it. Saying that one isolated incedent means that ALL white people look bad is akin to me saying that when I try to get gas in a certain neighborhood and a black lady tries to sell me drugs that makes all black people look like drug dealers.

In truth there are low-life morons no matter what the color of their skin.

If you think that these good 'ol boys playing dress up KKK makes ME look bad than you need to consider that you may be effected by some degree of prejudice against me as a white male.

I don't recall any backlash against chinese americans after that plane incedent... But if something did happen that's exactly what I'm talking about. This is a perfect example of prejudice -- a bunch of yay - hoos that think that if one country doesn't like the USA, the entire race must be the same.

-- What I'm saying is that the above described behavior is something that should be avoided. Especially by anyone claiming to be educated and/or open minded.

you don't have to recall it, you never got any of it. i do, don't believe me? ask an asian person. you're obviously quite naive. if you would ever read any of those post, i'm not making blanket statements of white people. i'm talking about the perception other races are going to have of them. shoot, this isn't even an isolated incident. read fuzzie's post. everyone else has gotten it, why haven't you? and yes, there are ignorant people who actually believe stuff like that. so don't pretend there aren't idiots out there like that. i've seen those pics.

[PinkRose1098]

Do any of you personally know the people you are talking about? I didn't know the idiots who did this but I do know they were a very very small part of this fraternity which has been at Auburn since 1908. The chapter itself is very diverse and you do not see that represented in the pictures that were published acroos the nation! You also never saw the anquish that is caused the the executive councel of the fraternity, I did! They spent months trying to save an organization they believed that was placed in jeopardy b/c of sophomoric idiots who didn't understand anything about what is acceptable, right or just! Think about how you would feel if someone you didn't know was saying things like this about you.

[starang21]

Originally posted by PinkRose1098
Do any of you personally know the people you are talking about? I didn't know the idiots who did this but I do know they were a very very small part of this fraternity which has been at Auburn since 1908. The chapter itself is very diverse and you do not see that represented in the pictures that were published acroos the nation! You also never saw the anquish that is caused the the executive councel of the fraternity, I did! They spent months trying to save an organization they believed that was placed in jeopardy b/c of sophomoric idiots who didn't understand anything about what is acceptable, right or just! Think about how you would feel if someone you didn't know was saying things like this about you.

off top, i could care less what they are feeling. if you don't can't handle the punishment, don't do the crime. no one could have told them to take it off? not even the minorities in the chapter? if they were so diverse, would something like this happen?

[FuzzieAlum]

Well, perhaps the rest of the chapter will now use better judgment in selecting their members in the future! If they truly disapproved of those members' behavior, they should have been disciplined in-house long before the rest of us heard anything about it. Maybe they did, maybe they kicked these guys out the next chapter meeting, but if that's the case I haven't heard it. If they didn't participate but didn't sanction the guys either, I don't think they were exactly upholding high standards either.

If they're going to claim these few brothers ruined it for the rest of them, I want to know, what did they do to prevent it? And how did they deal with it after the fact?

[starang21]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
Well, perhaps the rest of the chapter will now use better judgment in selecting their members in the future! If they truly disapproved of those members' behavior, they should have been disciplined in-house long before the rest of us heard anything about it. Maybe they did, maybe they kicked these guys out the next chapter meeting, but if that's the case I haven't heard it. If they didn't participate but didn't sanction the guys either, I don't think they were exactly upholding high standards either.

If they're going to claim these few brothers ruined it for the rest of them, I want to know, what did they do to prevent it? And how did they deal with it after the fact?

chances are, they just got a slap on the wrist and a "don't ever do that again." you're right, the punishment was most definitely not strong enough. people are going to think they can act a fool based on the first amendment now.

[EagleChick19]

Originally posted by PinkRose1098
Do any of you personally know the people you are talking about? I didn't know the idiots who did this but I do know they were a very very small part of this fraternity which has been at Auburn since 1908. The chapter itself is very diverse and you do not see that represented in the pictures that were published acroos the nation! You also never saw the anquish that is caused the the executive councel of the fraternity, I did! They spent months trying to save an organization they believed that was placed in jeopardy b/c of sophomoric idiots who didn't understand anything about what is acceptable, right or just! Think about how you would feel if someone you didn't know was saying things like this about you.

Usually, when something like this happens, its a very small minority of the organization. Kinda when they talk about hazing and how the small minority overpowers the majority and lets things happen. People need to stand up and stop this!!!!

[i]chances are, they just got a slap on the wrist and a "don't ever do that again." you're right, the punishment was most definitely not strong enough. people are going to think they can act a fool based on the first amendment now.[/B]

Most likely, they did get off with less than severe penalties. In this case, the punishment didn't fit the crime. People need to quit acting foolish and hiding behind the 1st amendment..

[James]

Damn, I missed this one lol.

Rather than me trying to defend myself lets pretend Prophet is right in his implication that I am as sick as they (the chapters in question) are. Being sick would still not preclude me from having the right and option of excercising my freedom of expression.

Even forms of expression that piss the rest of you off.

I am not sure which part of this a lot of you are having trouble comprehending.

Originally posted by prophet
Both, those chapters should be gone, off that campus! First of free speach is not meant to harm others, and if you (James) feel it dose mean that your as sick as they are. The pictures they took were enough to say, "Damn Racist Pigs."
-Heath

[James]

This is actually one of the better points in this thread in terms of application.

If the chapter is visibly boycotted, NPC sororities not doing mixers, attending their parties, or accepting be paired with them during Greek Events. We will see the chapter wilt visibly.

IF we go a step farther and people do editorials in the school paper as well as take out commercials on the school tv and maybe put up some posters with the pictures on it around campus, the chapter will be devestated.

The final step would be to actually stage protests before the houses larger attempts at parties. Get out there before the guests even show up and have video cameras taping people the people that enter the house. Then you could spend a few minutes of editing and splice the film together and put together a quick "video of shame" that would be released weekly and show the faces of the people attending the party along with some funny as hell commentary.

Example: "Yo, must be a freshman tricked out like a ho like that going into the most racist house on campus." Split screen shot with the noose-wearing-young-poster-children-for-birthcontrol and the freshman face. Follow up dialogue: "Damn freshmen girls are desperate for the cock to go in there".


Sheez people, its not that hard to break any house on a given campus. Just pay me a consultant's fee and I'll come down there and set up the program for you.

I am a little toungue in cheek but also serious. Remember, South Africa could deal with the world hating it, but it couldn't deal with divestment.

Originally posted by TKE_EO303
Oh, I have several thoughts.

First, if it isn't illegal I don't agree with any university punishment--period. I greatly believe in the bill of rights even for those with whom I disagree. Instead, I favor public shaming and ridicule. If an organization, GLO or otherwise, engages in beliefs or practices with which you disagree, then publicly call them upon it. IN this case, all the other GLO's could make signs and picket their house, refuse to associate with them in mixers, intramurals. etc.

Second, if it is illegal, then I think you have to take a careful look at the situation. If the group is sponsoring illegal activity, then there are statutes which deal with such groups and they should be procecuted. However, if it is a couple of idiots, then I think the university should deal with them on an individual basis. Group punishment is morally wrong. If one man does XXX, we shall punish all XXXs. If one Hispanic does XXX, then we shall punish all Hispanics. If one Sigma Chi does XXX, then we shall punish all Sigma Chi's. As an Aside, Group or collective punishment is one of the principal terror tactics used by muderous regimes throughout history. The Nazis used it frequently.

Jack

[James]

So, a more serious question: A lot of NPC women are posting on this thread.

1. Will you be calling/writing your chapters at Auburn and telling them not to associate with this chapter?

2. Will you be sending the same message to your National?

3. Don't you think its more likely that the NPC chapters will likely just keep on mixing and associating as usual?

If the answer to one and two are no, perhaps you should be a little less passionate about condemning the chapter when you have an easy option to do something meaningful. Talk is cheap when action is easy.

[EagleChick19]

Are you going to do the same thing? If you answered no to any of the questions, shut the !@$# up!