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11-15-2011, 01:01 PM
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I've edited my statement. This is a first I've heard of folks with recent 4 year degrees that didn't have to take any econ (usually I see people say "I only had to take micro/macro/basic").
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11-15-2011, 01:30 PM
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As a parent of two kids who excell in math, I've kept the sentiment to myself, but I also wonder why higher level math is needed to the degree it's taught in school.
After all, I've never written a check for $200 over X.
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11-15-2011, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agzg
I've edited my statement. This is a first I've heard of folks with recent 4 year degrees that didn't have to take any econ (usually I see people say "I only had to take micro/macro/basic").
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I just found out that most business majors don't have to take calculus, and I am still digesting this new information. I can't really understand how you'd take econ without it.
\hijack
As for linear algebra, is he into sports at all? The guys who make predictions (and take bets!) use algebra. Virtually any forecasting application builds on algebra, so is there something that interests him, and lends itself to that type of demo?
Also, virtually all of the best-paying college majors these days require math to at least integral calculus, so that's something to keep in mind.
ETA: link
Last edited by DeltaBetaBaby; 11-15-2011 at 01:50 PM.
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11-15-2011, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby
I just found out that most business majors don't have to take calculus, and I am still digesting this new information. I can't really understand how you'd take econ without it.
\hijack
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My school had "business algebra" and "business calculus," but if you took the regular ones, they sufficed.
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11-15-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC
MC, you may not use by-rote algebra every day, but I'm certain you use the same sort of logic every day - it's very much related to the "lawyer brain" (solving for unknowns/inconsistencies).
Essentially, any time you're solving for an unknown, you're using algebraic thinking - and that's a skill he will want to have, even if it's just wondering how much he can spend on two different items while still making budget for the month, or how to determine his 401(k) match sweet spot.
These aren't sexy reasons, but they do show that the reason why algebra is hard (it requires you to attack a problem in reverse, essentially) is the same as its benefit: an angle to attack problems that you didn't have before.
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Yeah, this gets at the main reason I have been able to come up with for him -- that it teaches a way of thinking and problem solving. But to his Aspergian brain, that's not good enough. The connection he wants to see is the specific one: I need to know how to do this kind of equation because I will use this kind of equation when I am doing this real-life task. And it's not enough to point to the kinds of jobs where you'd need to know how to do particular calculations; the fact that there are jobs where one would use, say, linear equations is irrelevant to him if it's a job he doesn't see himself doing (and if his attitude is that the job would be ruled out if it required much math). Of course, it doesn't help that he doesn't know what he wants to do. He just has the list of jobs that are out of consideration. (And yes, lawyer is out of consideration for him.  ) That leaves us reminding him that he wants to keep all his options open.
Non-trigonometrical tangent: He did tell me a few nights ago that one reason he dislikes math is because "it doesn't require any thinking." That is to say, in his view, it is mechanical or (his words), "nothing but method." You learn the formula, you plug in numbers, you solve the equation. There's nothing "creative" (again, his word) about it; nothing that requires you to think about it in the same way as, for example, you think about the effects of a historical event or the meaning of a story (or the application of a case). This lack of "creativity" makes it very, very boring to him. I'm trying to work through how this fits in to helping him approach algebra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby
As for linear algebra, is he into sports at all?
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Not at all, unfortunately. Doesn't like to play them, doesn't like to watch them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by agzg
The graph on the plane is just to conceptualize the concept in a context where it's not immediately apparent. And for things like statistical analysis, economic understanding, etc. where it's ideas instead of physical space.
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Perhaps this is what throws me. (Or again, maybe my own algebraic inadequacies are showing). I can see needing to know slope to figure out stairs or ramps (though I still don't see how linear equations come into using a tape measure to measure dimensions and multiply for area). And I know how to calculate the proper dimensions for stairs, though I've never had to do it. From his view, this makes it useless knowledge for me -- why do I bother knowing how if I don't need to use that information. That's the mindset we're dealing with.
But I can promise you that in the dark ages when I took algebra, nobody ever suggested that the graph on the plane is just there to conceptualize the idea -- the graph was presented as the purpose and goal of doing the linear equation. In other words, the way it was presented to us left the impression that the reason for doing the linear equation is to be able to draw it on graph paper. I'm pretty willing to bet that's the impression he has as well. That goes back to what I said at the outset -- my experience was that my otherwise very good math teachers didn't give us any sense at all as to why anything beyond basic mathematics mattered outside the classroom.
This is a lot of good food for thought, everyone -- thanks.
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11-15-2011, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Not at all, unfortunately. Doesn't like to play them, doesn't like to watch them.
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Let's go the other way, then...what are his hobbies, and I will try to think of an application :-)
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11-15-2011, 06:30 PM
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I haven't read every post of the entire thread, so excuse me if I say something that has already been said.
I currently teach Algebra I in the same state you live, MC, and in a county not very far away. Let me know if you decide you want an algebra tutor. (;
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
Non-trigonometrical tangent: He did tell me a few nights ago that one reason he dislikes math is because "it doesn't require any thinking." That is to say, in his view, it is mechanical or (his words), "nothing but method." You learn the formula, you plug in numbers, you solve the equation. There's nothing "creative" (again, his word) about it; nothing that requires you to think about it in the same way as, for example, you think about the effects of a historical event or the meaning of a story (or the application of a case). This lack of "creativity" makes it very, very boring to him. I'm trying to work through how this fits in to helping him approach algebra.
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This is very true and in the state you live, it is a result of standardized testing. There are "more creative" things that can be done with Algebra but because Algebra I is and always will be an EOC class, teachers are less likely to do more fun things. Their goal is to teach it exactly how it will look on the EOC so that the students can pass it. (As an special ed teacher teaching Algebra, my approach is a bit different, but gets the same result.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06
(I'm taking Teaching Math in SPED right now.)
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Nothing can truly prepare anyone to teach Algebra I to students with IQs of 50 and below. Teaching Algebra to EC kids is a very, very difficult job.
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11-15-2011, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysSAI
Nothing can truly prepare anyone to teach Algebra I to students with IQs of 50 and below. Teaching Algebra to EC kids is a very, very difficult job.
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Fun fact: The math course at my university includes tutoring local SPED elementary school students. However, our kid's IQ ranges are slightly higher (think mild learning disabilities and some behavioral issues, my lowest IQ is probably in the mid 60s.) As such, my math experiences are a LOT diff than yours (my kids are younger so we're doing basics right now.)
I'd love to hear about some of the strategies you use for that age/ability level, though. If you feel like sharing of course. Especially since it looks as though I will be math tutoring part-time (elementary and middle SPED) next semester (which is, I might add, my first ever non-preschool education related job for real money!)
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11-19-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agzg
I've edited my statement. This is a first I've heard of folks with recent 4 year degrees that didn't have to take any econ (usually I see people say "I only had to take micro/macro/basic").
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I won't have to take econ at all, with an expect graduation date of next May- but I'm also pursuing a BFA, so take that as you will.
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11-15-2011, 01:29 PM
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Is he planning on making money ever? Supply/demand
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11-15-2011, 01:30 PM
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From my perspective, K-12 taught me how to learn (or at least fake it for tests), a liberal arts education taught me how to think more critically, and my on the job training helped me figure out where I belong. However, I had to figure it out by myself with a lot of luck and good grace on the part of others.
I never use complicated formulas, I do not particularly enjoy math, and my husband is an accountant (which means I get a free pass in the math world). However- the concepts of problem solving do come in handy. Whether they are math related or other things- solving for "X" is a good capability to master. Do you need a full year of algebra (plus geometry, trig, and maybe even calculus) for that? No. Are there better real world applications to learn that skill? Yes, but how to approach that would be a deeper discussion. Ultimately, I took math because they told me to and because I needed it to go to college. I didn't know why I needed to go to college yet at that point, I just knew it was what came after high school. If he had any idea what he wanted to do professionally, you could bring it in that way... but he's probably too young and hasn't seen enough of the world yet to know what's out there.
Tangent: I wish that when schools or teachers or parents or whomever talked about potential career paths, there was a way to focus on how to identify each child's strengths and capitalize on them. That way they could also explore the lesser known fields/positions. The personality tests we took in school always had the same 50 or so professions: doctor, lawyer, accountant, actor, mechanic, etc.
As an example, I was the annoying child that always asked why. Why does this happen that way, why does it work like that, why does this word come before that one, why is this person shy and that one's a bully, how do they know when to turn the lights red/yellow/green... and so on. My strength? Pure, unfiltered curiosity about the world and people around me. If I had more of a mind for math (or perhaps if I had learned it in a different method), I could have been well suited to be an engineer. However, I somehow wound up being essentially a business owner of an application used by call center agents. My job is to ask why constantly. Why do you need this feature, why do you need the agent to enter this information, what are you going to do with the information collected, how will this impact the agent's overall experience, etc. It's a great fit. Did I ever hear about this type of role in school? No. Had I ever heard of Six Sigma (and the Five Whys  )? No. Is this the right profession for me, at least for now? Absolutely.
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11-15-2011, 04:16 PM
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MC, I don't know where you live & it doesn't matter. I DO have a practical application, I think, that might make it visually "concrete". Got any steep hills anywhere that have those grade signs ("5% grade" with the wedge shaped piece to indicate the pitch of the road)? I was so excited to learn that I could apply algebra to figure out what exactly that meant.
At least, I think it was an algebra problem. It could not possibly be geometry, I have permanently deleted any geometry from my hard drive (brain). If it is geometry, I am going to be so disappointed. It can't be. You had to plot points on a line to figure it out.
I keep thinking "make it visual, make it visual". It's incredibly helpful when people with Asperger's can actually SEE what the rest of us are talking about. As I remind people constantly, "the speech stream is transitory and invisible. You can't see spoken words." The instant that things are put into a visual mode, watch the lights go on!
BTW I've sent out an SOS to my SLP friends to see if they have any useful resources for you. If I get any responses, I'll PM you. It may take a few days to hear from people; we're all crazy busy right now.
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11-15-2011, 04:30 PM
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I think your reason #2 was the best one I could come up with since it's the only thing that ever got me motivated.
I'm in what's arguably a pretty math-heavy profession but I don't use much more than basic arithmetic. Very occasionally (like, once a year) I'll need some geometry but that's not really algebra-based. We had to take a semester of calc and a semester of physics for architecture but that was the extent of my college math. I think I used IB scores to get out of calc. I did enjoy stats, though.
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11-15-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby
Let's go the other way, then...what are his hobbies, and I will try to think of an application :-)
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He loves video games (though has made clear to us and to his teacher that he doesn't want to design them; I still wonder, though). He loves to read, he takes walks and runs (but we can't get him interested in track), and he takes karate, which he really enjoys. (It's the only sport-like physical activity we've been able to get him involved in.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03
We had to take a semester of calc and a semester of physics for architecture but that was the extent of my college math.
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When I was my son's age I wanted to be an architect, and then I realized the math and physics that would be involved. Never liked math and never liked science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzTheta
BTW I've sent out an SOS to my SLP friends to see if they have any useful resources for you. If I get any responses, I'll PM you. It may take a few days to hear from people; we're all crazy busy right now.
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Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06
You use algebra anytime you try to calculate an unknown based on other info you have.
Ex: Modifying a recipe is an algebraic function.
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I think I really must have an inadequate understanding of what differentiates algebra from other forms of math, because I would think of that as basic mathematics. That inadequate understanding on my part is probably not helping me help him.
Quote:
Everyone ahead of me pretty much stated what I was going to say. Apply it to what he likes and see if that changes anything. Good luck. He seems like a very bright boy. Remember that he's no less bright because he is struggling with math (you know that, as a dad but not every parent does.)
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Thanks. He is indeed a very bright boy. I think that has actually been part of his algebra problem -- aside from not enjoying math he's not used to things not coming easily, so there's a major frustration factor.
But get him started on things like the North Korean political system or the cult of Hitler, classical history, mythology, comparative politics or comparative religion (yes, he's been known to correct the teacher on things about religions other than ours, and yes the teacher looked it up and said "You're right") or many other topics, and he gets it a lot better than many adults.
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Last edited by MysticCat; 11-15-2011 at 05:00 PM.
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11-15-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat
When I was my son's age I wanted to be an architect, and then I realized the math and physics that would be involved. Never liked math and never liked science.
I think I really must have an inadequate understanding of what differentiates algebra from other forms of math, because I would think of that as basic mathematics. That inadequate understanding on my part is probably not helping me help him.
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The funny thing is, there's not that much math/physic involved! The most I do is arithmetic and a little geometry. I was talking with some co-workers at lunch today and we were saying how daunting older architects make the profession sound--perhaps so younger folks don't get into it?
But, maybe I have the same issue that you have--what I consider basic arithmetic (add/subtract/multiply/divide) is actually closer to algebra?
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