Prejudism

[Bamboozled]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
I have seen better discussions by 1st and 2 nd graders on TV!

Believe me, Tom Earp ... after trying to decipher most of your posts, you REALLY don't want to go there.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84

They can still kiss the grits. I'm born and raised in NYC and have never eaten them, but I'll look up the recipe, ESPECIALLY for them.

This is the funniest thing that I have read in a long time. Just trying to bring a little levity.

I don't know much about Affirmative Action. My understanding is that it was created to level the playing field and compensate for past exclusion from higher education and current inequalty in education. I don't have a problem with that. I have a big problem with the current problems in public school education particularly in NYC and other urban areas.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Bamboozled
*SIGH* The more things change, the more they stay the same. While I understand that the views represented in this thread are of an individual nature, it saddens me that, when it comes down to it, too many people still feel this way. With that said, I just want to address a couple of issues:



See, that's the beauty of you being WHITE and FEMALE in this country. You can rest assured that if you are "held to the standards" you've described, that you have a great chance of getting the job, scholarship, etc... Now, being BLACK and FEMALE, I can't say the same thing. Hence the need for affirmative action. "I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority." Well, how would you feel if you DIDN'T get the scholarship BECAUSE you're a minority?



It is absolutely ludicrous and damn near narcissistic to think that ANY minority that receives a job/scholarship did so only because of his/her skin color. All jobs/schools have admission criteria set in place and, contrary to popular belief, even black students/applicants must adhere to that criteria. And the statements about minorities who are "lazy" and don't even want to go to college is laughable at best. AA is supposed to be about righting the wrongs of individuals who allow their own biases and prejudices to get in the way of making hiring decisions.

Also, if you believe that AA has ANYTHING to do with economics, you really have no clue and need to do some research before you continue to post.

You've been bamboozled into thinking I said the fact that someone is a minority is the only reason they received a job/scholarship.

And in regards to economics, I only meant what lovelyivy said about the lack of equality in funding of education. So please don't tell me I have no clue and need to do research before I post.

-Rudey

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Rudey


You've been bamboozled into thinking I said the fact that someone is a minority is the only reason they received a job/scholarship.

-Rudey

Did you not say this earlier:


"The fact is that it's easier to get in if you're an underrepresented minority. It is not the end all, be all reason for why you were accepted, but yeah you can bet that if you checked off any of those minority boxes, you got an extra boost which others didn't. '

yes, you did try and clean it up by saying that it wasn't the end all reason, but still........

[Tom Earp]

I am totally unimpressed by your mental dexterity and renumeration of my ineptatude!

That just shows your where with all of the true picture!

The reason I could not just stand by is , Da Why?

If you want to be a what ever you call your self, feel free, and many people will just sit back and Go What!

You and many others of your group do get tedious and longer winded! Self importance is getting just a little bit under whealming!

Say what you will, but a lot of people are getting very tired of it! Look to see how many other people are joinging in this thread!

Why not drop it instead of Prolonging it! ?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974


Did you not say this earlier:


"The fact is that it's easier to get in if you're an underrepresented minority. It is not the end all, be all reason for why you were accepted, but yeah you can bet that if you checked off any of those minority boxes, you got an extra boost which others didn't. '

yes, you did try and clean it up by saying that it wasn't the end all reason, but still........

Wow, this is a little funny. Your line about the end all reason is very true. I am not cleaning anything up. I am saying it is PART of, not ALL of, the reason why you were admitted. I am not sure what is hard to understand but i'm not trying to clean anything up so don't put words in my mouth as you said.

- Rudey

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Tom Earp


You and many others of your group do get tedious and longer winded! Self importance is getting just a little bit under whealming!

Say what you will, but a lot of people are getting very tired of it! Look to see how many other people are joinging in this thread!

Why not drop it instead of Prolonging it! ?

Tom Earp, I was SO ready to leave you out of this. I even deleted a post of mine because it was brought to my attention that it was kinda harsh/personal.

But this is too much.

"Your group"?

Why have YOU prolonged it by adding another post? Really. Think before you hit submit.

Rudey, your pm was well-received. I do think it is funny that everyone else thinks that "we" are simply "sticking together" as a "group" in this thread. Could it not be that "we" just have the same beliefs? I see that Cream and KSig pretty much have said what "we" have. Does that include them in the "group" too? This is very interesting to me. Not once has anyone accused the detractors of race a a social construct of "showing solidarity" or being a "group." I think this is more telling than anything about the mentalities of some in this thread. Hmmm....grouping and classifying...sound familiar?

[Honeykiss1974]

QUOTE: This is very interesting to me. Not once has anyone accused the detractors of race a a social construct of "showing solidarity" or being a "group." I think this is more telling than anything about the mentalities of some in this thread. Hmmm....grouping and classifying...sound familiar?

^ 5

[PM_Mama00]

Originally posted by Rudey


Once again, don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority.

I think hired minorities are the hardest workers! My father's workers are either Italians or minorities. Why so many minorities? Cuz they come to him for work, and are the best and hardest working. My father is not prejudist, but there may possibly be that lil itty bit of it in him, but he loves those guys because they are the ones makin the company money.

[Dionysus]

SOME CLARIFICATION!

Just because you are a minority it does NOT mean that you automatically get scholarships!

Most of the scholarships for minorities are for the ones that who are POOR!

Some of you are confusing this as racial thing instead of a class one!

I'm a minority and I too think that a lot of scholarships are unfair.

I come from a middle class family and we have to work our a$$es off in order to pay tuition for a mediocre school, while athletes, musicians, artists, and the underprivledged gets a free a ride to any school of their choice, just because.

I WANT TO GET THIS STRAIGHT!

[Dionysus]

And, another thing. HTF are Arabs WHITE?

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by PM_Mama00


I think hired minorities are the hardest workers! My father's workers are either Italians or minorities. Why so many minorities? Cuz they come to him for work, and are the best and hardest working. My father is not prejudist, but there may possibly be that lil itty bit of it in him, but he loves those guys because they are the ones makin the company money.

PM_Mama...

I...Really...Think...You...Should...Not...Post...A gain.

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by Rudey

Who is we?

Jewish people of Eastern European descent.

I do not see where you are going with this..."let's start with that." "Jews" are not a race, "Irish" are not a race..."African-Americans" are a race to you, so would blacks from other parts of the world be another race?

It would depend how narrow those categories are divided. And yes I know jews and irish people aren't races, those were examples of stereotypes associated with a group. Don't take things so literally.

For whom are these stereotypes linked to that individual? Just because a lot of people have a perception in their mind of certain people, does NOT mean they are right. The majority of the world has a skewed conception on a lot of things because of their lack of education...not because there is a biological basis for race.

I don't disagree that many people are stupid, but that's not my point. It's just the way people categorize racial and ethnic groups.

There are black, asian, hispanic Jews. Within whites, or caucasians, there are even more categories that are lumped together...all in a social manner because someone lumped them together.

Yes, that's how you see it, but not everyone. We are not trying to create the perfect society and how people think, just dissect how it is and why people see it that way.

Even scientifically you make no sense...how can there be a phenotype without a genotype?? Within the category of caucasian, anglo-saxon and middle eastern are included. You claim that there are physical indicators (common traits associated with them) for race which make it biological, but that breaks down here. A person from the middle east will be darker and than someone who is anglo-saxon in many cases...even darker than someone who is latino possibly. Yet middle easterners and anglos are dumped into a broad category called white. Even the government has been having a great deal of trouble using "race" in the census...kinda hard to distinguish blacks who are hispanic for one example.

If this doesn't make sense to you, don't worry about. I'm not categorizing the world for you, so relax kiddo. This is just an explanation of what racism is. People look at more than just skin tone, so don't base an argument against science on one example. Not everyone fits into a specific racial group, in fact, one could argue not a single person does because we are so much different down to the core. But the basic examples of traits and characterstics can group a # of people into a group. You can find a # of people that are completely "mixed" but you can still find a bunch of "pure" african-americans, asian, native americans (i hope), caucasians, indians, etc.

Sometime people stereotype an individual into a specific racial group, even if they do not belong their (a dark-skinned european caucasian as you point out) but that doesn't change the fact that he/she will be discriminated against as if he/she were in fact part of the racial group in which the appear to be part of. It does come down to biology, it's what makes us look like we do.


RUgreek

[Dionysus]

PM Mama 00

Keep on posting, matter of fact, post more! What you say is pure comedy. And, how much is lil itty bit prejudIST?

Neicy81, where can I get my holistic healing on?

On an entire different note, I wonder how many PMs are flying around about this thread? Fess up!

[lovelyivy84]

I think this is the best post I've read on this thread- thanks for providing all of the technical information!

And you KNOW you wrong for prayin up in here! LMAO!

Originally posted by Exquisite5
WOW... First, let me pray. Dear God, please give me the words to educate without offending others and causing someone to miss the message because of the delivery. Lord, give me the words to enlighten minds and in doing so help your light shine through me. ~Amen

Okay, deep breath. There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to address here.

Let me start with affirmative action.

In large urban areas there is A LACK OF EQUITY IN EDUCATION. Breaking that down, that means, even within a certain school district that shares one huge tax base schools in which the student bodyis predominately white are often nicer, cleaner, better kept, employing better teachers, the benefisciaries of better field trips, the benefisciaries of free AP exams and many other things tha their predominately black counterparts in the SAME DISTRICT do not receive.

I am not referring to suburban schools that would clearly have a higher tax base (and can those afford higher quality), right now I am just talking of EQUITY WITHIN ONE DISTRICT.

Now this inequity, which is of even greater magnitude when comparing urban predominately minority schools and suburban predominately white schools, is what leads to inequity in education. A CHILD SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED BY THE EDUCATION SYSTEM BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS OR HER SKIN. period. When this happens, as it does EVERYDAY in America, something should and MUST be done to rectify the situation...this is where affirmative action comes in.

I am not dealing with the lazy children of any race. I am speaking of children who WANT to learn, but simply because of where they live and attend school (which due to zoning relates back to how much money their parents earn-an often related to "race") they are relegated to a school that provides an education less than and UNEQUAL to that of white students IN THE SAME DISTRICT.

For instance, in Houston, where I am from, high school attendance is based on where the student lives. Lets say I am from an area where the high school is sub-par and because I am from that area I AM REQUIRED TO ATTEND THAT SCHOOL (the magnet schools are full) I will not be afforded the same educational opportunities as students in THE SAME DISTRICT that live across town near the brand new school with computers in every classroom, free Princetown Review for SAT prep, school paid for AP exams and teachers who took pay cuts just to be able to say they teach at "the new school". This is inequity in education. Our parents live and pay taxes in the same district, therefore our schools which are in the same district and SHOULD be of equal opportunity, are not.

This contrast is even greater between rich suburban schools (often high European ancestry concentration) of suburban districts and poorer inner city (often high minority concentration) schools.

Affirmative action in education is NECEASSARY to rectify situations like this. Attending the inner city school, I may work HARD, HARD, HARD, but since my school does not offer free Princeton Review for SAT and since my school doesn't pay for my AP classes (which few inner city students can afford) I do not look as good ON PAPER when applying to college. I can get in, and I do. I have a 4.0, but I am often beaten out for scholarships by students from that school across town who took that free Princeton Review class and scored the guaranteed 140 points higher than me on the SAT. Or I cannot compete with that student who doesn't have a 4.0, but whose dad has whispered in the ear that if he can have the prestige of saying his son got a full ride to XX School, daddy will pay for the new chem lab (In this country on the whole, people who can afford to pay for new chem labs TEND to be white).

I want to go to college, I don't have a 1.39, or even a 2.9, or a rich daddy, but since there is no equity in secondary education I cannot afford to attend college.

Affirmative action in collegiate financing helps to rectify situations likes this. It helps to end the good old boy network of buying one's way into a free education. (Kind of ironic, huh?)

When money is set aside to fund minorities in higher education, it doesn't take money from white students, simply a separate pool of money is raised for minority students (who statistically DO come from lower socio-economic classes) so that they can compete against EACH OTHER on a level playing field. One in which being fortunate to attend "the good school" in the district does not buy one's way into college.

Additionally, I would like to state that a diverse student body BENEFITS EVERYONE. I attend Texas A&M, it is characterized as a "Good Ol' Boy" school. It has one of the most conservative and lily-white student bodies. In Texas, African-Americans make up about 13% of the population, but less than 3% of the A&M student body. Many of the students at A&M are from small (population less than 5000) predominately (if not completely) white towns. Many of the students have never seen a person of color before attending A&M.

Recently a survey was given to hiring departments at many Fortune 500 companies. The results stated that while employers were very confident in the strenght of the A&M degree and the A&M graduates were ALWAYS technically proficient they were often reluctant to hire them because many were closed-minded, lacked world exposure and LACKE THE ABILITY OR KNOW HOW TO INTERACT WITH DIVERSE GROUPS OF PEOPLE. They said they could not be confident sending them to Africa or the Middle East(very important in petroleum engineering...our engineering college is top ranked) because they were not certain of how they would respond and interact. Therefore, diverifying the student body (at any institution) strenghtens the degree earned by all because employers are confident that they are not hiring a person with limited exposure, limited knowledge of different groups and limited interaction capabilities.

Believe me, if a campus remains lilly-white it will hurt the very students complaining about efforts to diversify.

I hope all of that made sense.

Now, race.

There is no argueing race IS a social construct meant to segregate people. Period.

A person's phenotype (outward expression of their genes) CANNOT be used to make assumptions about their genotype (actually genetic makeup). This is because genes are either dominant or recessive. Basically, I may be very fair and very straight hair, and you assume I am of European ancestry and share a genotype common to many European people. You are wrong, because I am really born to two African American parents and my skin and hair are simply expressions of a combination of recessice genes that by nature and the decision of God made it through my bloodline, combined through my parents in just the right way to express my receissive genes. It just so happens that BOTH of my parents were carrying the recessive genes that are expressed phenotypically as light skin and straight hair and their combination was made evident in me.

note..I am not talking about me..I am pretty brown and loving it

Here is an example of a personal mishap. I spend six weeks in Israel during the summer of 1997. I traveled all over and one night my group dinned in the home of an Israelil-Arab family. The entire family was very pale with red hair. I (in my pre-reading of Race Matters ignorance) asked them if they were Irish Jews who made Aaliyah(moved to Israel and went through the steps to become citizens). They told me no, they were INDIGENOUS Arabs and just looked that way because of God.

They are not part of the "race" of people of European decent. Yet, they looked like it. PHENOTYPIC EXPRESSION (race) has no concrete biological basis, it is born of pure social construct by close-minded people who are now dead based on what APPEARS to be.

Let us just leave it at that. Yes, phenotypic expression is often similar of people of the same "race", but there is no certainty and for ANYTHING to be biological and therefore scientifice there HAS to be certainty.

I hope I have enlightened without offending. I have been respectful and welcome posts in response, but please maintain the same level of respect.

I too with say, "Bring it!". Not because I like the movie, "Bring it on" or because I am immature, but because I am confident in what I know. I have been trained for this discussion and an ready educate.