Prejudism

[librasoul22]

Okay...
First @ Rudey, you get MAJOR props. Even when you post something I don't necessarily fully agree with you present an argument that makes me reconsider my stance. Love it!

First of all, do not go comparing apples and oranges. The number "one" is VERY significant in this case. Getting a job due to your ethnicity is hardly the same as a murder, lol. What Honeykiss1974 was trying to illustrate is that one case or even TEN cases do not balance out the discrimination that takes place on a daily basis. While 10 white men may have been overlooked for positions due to an African-American (or WHATEVER minority you want to place there) being up for the same position, I GUARANTEE you that will not EVER overcome the number of African-Americans who are discriminated against for positions DAILY. And if you want to talk semantics (lol), let us factor in the IMPORTANCE of the positions. That is why I asked about CEO's, etc. Because bottom line, there are VERY FEW minorities who hold positions of TRUE power in the United States, and even THEY still hav superiors to answer to.

Ilovemyglo...what college in their right mind looks for individuals who have no interest in attending college? Of ANY ethnicity? I am sure you were trying to make some kind of point, but that was clearly an over-exaggeration.

@ RUGreek...I was trying to get something out of your last post, but it was convoluted. Please clarify your point and I will try harder to understand.

Back @ Ilovemyglo: The positions that are most affected by Affirmative Action are barely anything to even concern yourself over. Please name an instance of a CEO or a head of a major corporation getting their position due to Affirmative Action. That is why the argument against AA is so fruitless. As far as colleges go, let me know when the demographics of universities as a whole start taking a drastic incline towards ANY minority.

Lastly @ KSig...a great post. I am in total agreeance with everything you said.

[Honeykiss1974]

Who is the moderator of this forum?

[lovelyivy84]

Does anyone ever stop to think about the secondary school system in America when they argue against AA?

Public schools in minority neighborhoods can not even begin to match the education given at institutions where the students are mostly white.

This is all related to the funding of schools coming from property taxes of course, but what it essentially means is that if you live in a black neighborhood, good luck getting anything approaching a real education! The people that manage to are the EXCEPTIOn, not the majority.

In America, education is not equal, especially not for minorities of pretty much all colors (schools in the Chinatown district of NYC face the SAME problems).

AA is supposed to address this education gap.

How come I never hear ANY of the people who are so vocal about AA arguing the same way against the ease with which legacy students get into college? I know a lot of people who got into colleges because of Daddy's name and Daddy's money and no one gave it a second though, but when I who was head of debate, editor of the newspaper and had a great GPA got into an Ivy League college on early decision no less, they had a problem with it.

Can someone explain that to me possibly? There were two people in my high school class with SAT and SAT II scores higher than mine. But my getting into Who's Who was about my race? Come on! I really think a lot of people are hypocrites on this issue- Black people because it's in ouyr benefit (sorta) and white people because it's not in theirs FOR ONCE.

[Bamboozled]

*SIGH* The more things change, the more they stay the same. While I understand that the views represented in this thread are of an individual nature, it saddens me that, when it comes down to it, too many people still feel this way. With that said, I just want to address a couple of issues:

Originally posted by ilovemyglo
AND I do believe that I said someone that wanted to take a few free years in school that was lazy- not just everyone. I know of minorities that have received scholarships because they were outstanding students, and no other reason. I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority. But maybe I just hold myself to that standard.

See, that's the beauty of you being WHITE and FEMALE in this country. You can rest assured that if you are "held to the standards" you've described, that you have a great chance of getting the job, scholarship, etc... Now, being BLACK and FEMALE, I can't say the same thing. Hence the need for affirmative action. "I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority." Well, how would you feel if you DIDN'T get the scholarship BECAUSE you're a minority?

Originally posted by Rudey
but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in.

and

I don't make a claim that you can be an idiot and get into Harvard if you're simply black, but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in.

It is absolutely ludicrous and damn near narcissistic to think that ANY minority that receives a job/scholarship did so only because of his/her skin color. All jobs/schools have admission criteria set in place and, contrary to popular belief, even black students/applicants must adhere to that criteria. And the statements about minorities who are "lazy" and don't even want to go to college is laughable at best. AA is supposed to be about righting the wrongs of individuals who allow their own biases and prejudices to get in the way of making hiring decisions.

Also, if you believe that AA has ANYTHING to do with economics, you really have no clue and need to do some research before you continue to post.

[ZTAMiami]

LovelyIvy,
I completely agree!
Isn't this common knowledge though? Affirmative action benefits those minorities who have not had the privilege of receiving an equal education due to the fact that they live in a low income area. I can definitely say I've benfited from this.

[Bamboozled]

Originally posted by Bamboozled
Also, if you believe that AA has ANYTHING to do with economics, you really have no clue and need to do some research before you continue to post. [/B]

I just wanted to clarify what I meant by this. I totally agree with LovelyIvy's post regarding the need for AA (disparity in education), which does indirectly encompass financial status. This comment was directed more towards these kind of comments:

The claim that people who are minorities deal with poverty and it is harder for them to get into college, is wrong to me.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Bamboozled
*SIGH* The more things change, the more they stay the same. While I understand that the views represented in this thread are of an individual nature, it saddens me that, when it comes down to it, too many people still feel this way. With that said, I just want to address a couple of issues:



See, that's the beauty of you being WHITE and FEMALE in this country. You can rest assured that if you are "held to the standards" you've described, that you have a great chance of getting the job, scholarship, etc... Now, being BLACK and FEMALE, I can't say the same thing. Hence the need for affirmative action. "I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority." Well, how would you feel if you DIDN'T get the scholarship BECAUSE you're a minority?



It is absolutely ludicrous and damn near narcissistic to think that ANY minority that receives a job/scholarship did so only because of his/her skin color. All jobs/schools have admission criteria set in place and, contrary to popular belief, even black students/applicants must adhere to that criteria. And the statements about minorities who are "lazy" and don't even want to go to college is laughable at best. AA is supposed to be about righting the wrongs of individuals who allow their own biases and prejudices to get in the way of making hiring decisions.

Also, if you believe that AA has ANYTHING to do with economics, you really have no clue and need to do some research before you continue to post.

*applause*

[Rudey]

It is becoming harder to quote you with your addition of colors, but here we go...my thoughts start with the asterixes [Drum roll please]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally disagree with this. The fact that you used "probably" in your sentence indicates you don't fully believe it either.

Rudey, do not put words into my mouth. My sentence of "Those individuals PROBABLY worked just as hards and as long as anyone else" was in regards to work ethic. Some people have to struglle for good grades, some don't

***Nobody put words in your mouth. Relax and stay calm...breathe in...do pilates or something.***

Does the number one change the meaning somehow? Does one person who was killed for a stupid cause make them nothing to look at? And the fact is that it's not just one. I don't make a claim that you can be an idiot and get into Harvard if you're simply black, but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in.

Again Rudey, as Librasoul22 has stated and which was the intent of my statement, please look at things GLOBABLY and not just one incident (in regards to PM Mama's post)

***I assume you meant globally? Either way, saying "And the fact is that it's not just one" clearly indicated that I'm not looking at one incident. So as you said earlier, "do not put words into my mouth."***

Nobody claims they are lazy or dumb, but everyone knows that the standards are lower if you're not in the "majority". I remember reading somewhere that there are whites who can get into black colleges easier lately. They may not be worth any less than the blacks, but certainly their stats can be lower and the school's adcomm will look the other way when they wouldn't for someone in the majority.

Did she or did she not just the word LAZY (Ilovemyglo) in her post?? I was addressing it to her statement. Additionally please provide me with some info in regards to HBCU's LOWERING their standards to admit white students. i attended an HBCU (with about 40% of non-african americans) and I really don't believe your statement has much basis to it.

***Yes she did use the word lazy. But she didn't say anyone and everyone who gets it is lazy. Also I believe you added the words "dumb" and "bum" into there. In regards to the HBCU's I probably don't have anywhere near the info you have since you went to one. My father did at one point work shortly for one but in either case, I'm sure that means nothing. My statement was based on what others had said and they could be wrong, so I apologize if they were(http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...&threadid=8607):
1) "Yes, at some schools they do. Hampton University is one of those schools. (I didn't go there but I read about it in the paper). Also caucasion people receive minority scholarships at most black schools too."

ZetaAce
2) ZetaAce is correct in her answer to you. There was also a story on one of the TV news magazine shows (I don't remember which one--I get them mixed up) that talked about the 'minority' scholarships at HBCU Alabama State (or was it Alabama A & M? Can you tell I'm not a stickler for details ) The state government in AL is trying to balance enrollment at all schools and, as a result, trying to get white student to attend the historically black schools. To do this they are giving them full scholarships. It was an interesting discussion.

Eclipse
***

Once again, don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority.

Rudey, why are you telling people (and I quote ) " don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority. " HUH??? Aren't you doing the same thing within one statement? You just told me to not assume that minorities that are not lazy, but its ok to ASSume that they came into the easier way???

***Is one the same as the other...is being lazy the same as getting in the easier way? The answer is no. You don't have to be lazy to try and get in the easier way if the easier way is the only way you will get in. You're looking at my wording very literally and I will clarify it. Sometimes, when a person is applying to a college they cannot go back and change their grades or work harder...if they simply apply with those grades they will risk the chance of getting rejected if others have better grades. Thus their only option of acceptance is to go through the back door.
***

How does anyone know HOW they came in? Just because they are a minority?

***Nobody can skirt the issue. The fact is that it's easier to get in if you're an underrepresented minority. It is not the end all, be all reason for why you were accepted, but yeah you can bet that if you checked off any of those minority boxes, you got an extra boost which others didn't.
***

AA (in academia) was not created because some colleges were harder to get into. It was created because they are institutions of higher learning that would not admit a minority in REGARDLESS!!!!!! (of GPA, community service, academic achievements). It was not based on FINANCIAL NEED,

***I understand that minorities were not accepted and AA forced them to accept minorities. I agree with you on that. I agree with you that still occurs in the work force to a great extent. However, I believe that there are better alternatives to affirmative action that are not being explored. Sometimes, in my opinion, it becomes difficult to distinguish racist practices from simple sound hiring practices, and it becomes difficult to draw the line. Should the FDNY (Fire department of ny) lower its standards to let in women?? That is an example I can think of that a women's group was upset because the exam required firemen to carry a heavy dummy up a lot of stairs which most people could not do. Should women still be taken in as firemen all for the sake of creating diversity as many institutions use AA for now? Assuming that someone with higher scores and statistics is more likely to do better at his work just as he did in school, should an investment firm hire an analyst when one mistake can cost them several millions of dollars? I think you see what I am trying to say. But what many people say is that there are still racist hiring practices to this day (much more so against "blacks" than "whites") that prevent minorities who are just as qualified as those in the majority from rising up the corporate ladder. I agree with that. But perhaps affirmative action isn't the best solution to that. Furthermore, the fact is that affirmative action hurts certain groups of people by not accounting for them as I said earlier. It also hurts people in the majority, even if only a little. The solution should be one that hurts nobody...not one that still hurts some people. Wouldn't you agree? I don't have the solution but perhaps others might. Perhaps the solution is to completely factor race out of hiring or admissions practices and deal only with the numbers, but then again, people are never numbers.
***

And Ilovemyglo, your post was read loud and clear and understood what you said. i can't apologize if my response wasn't what you were looking for.

- Rudey
-- Endorsed by librasoul22

[Serenity]

Couldn't have said it better myself, lovelyivy84!

BTW, I wish I could say I wasn't disturbed by all the misconceptions about Affirmative Action that are being stated as fact by some, but I am.

There is a wealth of knowledge about AA on the net...

[librasoul22]

- Rudey
-- Endorsed by librasoul22

Ahhh...not quite endorsed, I am just acknowledging that, in comparison with others on this board, you seem to be somewhat more insightful as to what exactly you are arguing!

That being said, I think lovelyivy84's post was one of the better points made in this thread, and definitely food for thought. I am interested to see what the detractors say about that issue.

[Honeykiss1974]

Without resorting to the "childess retort" level as some, I too along with Serentity am shocked, but certainly not surprised, by some of the misconceptions.

[Exquisite5]

WOW... First, let me pray. Dear God, please give me the words to educate without offending others and causing someone to miss the message because of the delivery. Lord, give me the words to enlighten minds and in doing so help your light shine through me. ~Amen

Okay, deep breath. There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to address here.

Let me start with affirmative action.

In large urban areas there is A LACK OF EQUITY IN EDUCATION. Breaking that down, that means, even within a certain school district that shares one huge tax base schools in which the student bodyis predominately white are often nicer, cleaner, better kept, employing better teachers, the benefisciaries of better field trips, the benefisciaries of free AP exams and many other things tha their predominately black counterparts in the SAME DISTRICT do not receive.

I am not referring to suburban schools that would clearly have a higher tax base (and can those afford higher quality), right now I am just talking of EQUITY WITHIN ONE DISTRICT.

Now this inequity, which is of even greater magnitude when comparing urban predominately minority schools and suburban predominately white schools, is what leads to inequity in education. A CHILD SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED BY THE EDUCATION SYSTEM BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS OR HER SKIN. period. When this happens, as it does EVERYDAY in America, something should and MUST be done to rectify the situation...this is where affirmative action comes in.

I am not dealing with the lazy children of any race. I am speaking of children who WANT to learn, but simply because of where they live and attend school (which due to zoning relates back to how much money their parents earn-an often related to "race") they are relegated to a school that provides an education less than and UNEQUAL to that of white students IN THE SAME DISTRICT.

For instance, in Houston, where I am from, high school attendance is based on where the student lives. Lets say I am from an area where the high school is sub-par and because I am from that area I AM REQUIRED TO ATTEND THAT SCHOOL (the magnet schools are full) I will not be afforded the same educational opportunities as students in THE SAME DISTRICT that live across town near the brand new school with computers in every classroom, free Princetown Review for SAT prep, school paid for AP exams and teachers who took pay cuts just to be able to say they teach at "the new school". This is inequity in education. Our parents live and pay taxes in the same district, therefore our schools which are in the same district and SHOULD be of equal opportunity, are not.

This contrast is even greater between rich suburban schools (often high European ancestry concentration) of suburban districts and poorer inner city (often high minority concentration) schools.

Affirmative action in education is NECEASSARY to rectify situations like this. Attending the inner city school, I may work HARD, HARD, HARD, but since my school does not offer free Princeton Review for SAT and since my school doesn't pay for my AP classes (which few inner city students can afford) I do not look as good ON PAPER when applying to college. I can get in, and I do. I have a 4.0, but I am often beaten out for scholarships by students from that school across town who took that free Princeton Review class and scored the guaranteed 140 points higher than me on the SAT. Or I cannot compete with that student who doesn't have a 4.0, but whose dad has whispered in the ear that if he can have the prestige of saying his son got a full ride to XX School, daddy will pay for the new chem lab (In this country on the whole, people who can afford to pay for new chem labs TEND to be white).

I want to go to college, I don't have a 1.39, or even a 2.9, or a rich daddy, but since there is no equity in secondary education I cannot afford to attend college.

Affirmative action in collegiate financing helps to rectify situations likes this. It helps to end the good old boy network of buying one's way into a free education. (Kind of ironic, huh?)

When money is set aside to fund minorities in higher education, it doesn't take money from white students, simply a separate pool of money is raised for minority students (who statistically DO come from lower socio-economic classes) so that they can compete against EACH OTHER on a level playing field. One in which being fortunate to attend "the good school" in the district does not buy one's way into college.

Additionally, I would like to state that a diverse student body BENEFITS EVERYONE. I attend Texas A&M, it is characterized as a "Good Ol' Boy" school. It has one of the most conservative and lily-white student bodies. In Texas, African-Americans make up about 13% of the population, but less than 3% of the A&M student body. Many of the students at A&M are from small (population less than 5000) predominately (if not completely) white towns. Many of the students have never seen a person of color before attending A&M.

Recently a survey was given to hiring departments at many Fortune 500 companies. The results stated that while employers were very confident in the strenght of the A&M degree and the A&M graduates were ALWAYS technically proficient they were often reluctant to hire them because many were closed-minded, lacked world exposure and LACKE THE ABILITY OR KNOW HOW TO INTERACT WITH DIVERSE GROUPS OF PEOPLE. They said they could not be confident sending them to Africa or the Middle East(very important in petroleum engineering...our engineering college is top ranked) because they were not certain of how they would respond and interact. Therefore, diverifying the student body (at any institution) strenghtens the degree earned by all because employers are confident that they are not hiring a person with limited exposure, limited knowledge of different groups and limited interaction capabilities.

Believe me, if a campus remains lilly-white it will hurt the very students complaining about efforts to diversify.

I hope all of that made sense.

Now, race.

There is no argueing race IS a social construct meant to segregate people. Period.

A person's phenotype (outward expression of their genes) CANNOT be used to make assumptions about their genotype (actually genetic makeup). This is because genes are either dominant or recessive. Basically, I may be very fair and very straight hair, and you assume I am of European ancestry and share a genotype common to many European people. You are wrong, because I am really born to two African American parents and my skin and hair are simply expressions of a combination of recessice genes that by nature and the decision of God made it through my bloodline, combined through my parents in just the right way to express my receissive genes. It just so happens that BOTH of my parents were carrying the recessive genes that are expressed phenotypically as light skin and straight hair and their combination was made evident in me.

note..I am not talking about me..I am pretty brown and loving it

Here is an example of a personal mishap. I spend six weeks in Israel during the summer of 1997. I traveled all over and one night my group dinned in the home of an Israelil-Arab family. The entire family was very pale with red hair. I (in my pre-reading of Race Matters ignorance) asked them if they were Irish Jews who made Aaliyah(moved to Israel and went through the steps to become citizens). They told me no, they were INDIGENOUS Arabs and just looked that way because of God.

They are not part of the "race" of people of European decent. Yet, they looked like it. PHENOTYPIC EXPRESSION (race) has no concrete biological basis, it is born of pure social construct by close-minded people who are now dead based on what APPEARS to be.

Let us just leave it at that. Yes, phenotypic expression is often similar of people of the same "race", but there is no certainty and for ANYTHING to be biological and therefore scientifice there HAS to be certainty.

I hope I have enlightened without offending. I have been respectful and welcome posts in response, but please maintain the same level of respect.

I too with say, "Bring it!". Not because I like the movie, "Bring it on" or because I am immature, but because I am confident in what I know. I have been trained for this discussion and an ready educate.

[Bamboozled]

Originally posted by Rudey
***Nobody can skirt the issue. The fact is that it's easier to get in if you're an underrepresented minority. It is not the end all, be all reason for why you were accepted, but yeah you can bet that if you checked off any of those minority boxes, you got an extra boost which others didn't.

Huh??? "You got an extra boost which others didn't"? Excuse me, but being a white male with unlimited educational resources is a hell of a boost in my book.

[Tom Earp]

Fight you dogs of the devil!

ARRRRRG!

How many races or religions are pure?

Sometimes self importence in each of these areas gets underwhelming by the actions of a few who want to put your beleifs on the others!

Get over yourself importance and try to focus on the Main Picture of what needs to be done! Not by brow beating the members of this site!

Grits, just what the hell is grits? What is Spam? What is Pone?

What is BS?

S*&^ Runs down hill and we all feel at times we are the bottom of the food Chain!

Politically Correct and Affirmative Action, Yes, I have seen both at work in their Governmental way! Who does that help?

It hurts all! Not just one type of people or person!

You may pick up the Standard for the certain groups but whom do you hurt in the long run!

Of all of the rhretoric going around I find it very saddening from this great group of People!

I have seen better discussions by 1st and 2 nd graders on TV!

I am sorry people but I am unimpressed by the name calling and back bites from some who call themselves adults!

Carry on and act like little ethinic children! Your decision!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Bamboozled


Huh??? "You got an extra boost which others didn't"? Excuse me, but being a white male with unlimited educational resources is a hell of a boost in my book.

A white male...well I understand the male part...but not the white part. Would you care to explain to me what white is? Then go further and tell me what "unlimited" educational resources a white male gets. In the mean time, I will say "Huh" and excuse you as you asked.

- Rudey