NYC community board OKs ground zero mosque plans

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by epchick

I know you know this (and probably just typed the wrong word) but the religion is Islam. A Muslim is someone who follows Islam.

Reading my post would tell you that I knew that.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Well, of course, and I don't understand why people keep bringing up the JCC and YMCA.

I was under the understanding (and it may be mistaken) that this was more than "just a mosque" - I thought it was supposed to be a multi-level community center.

The comparison may not fit completely with what the Y has become in recent decades, but I think it certainly fits with JCC in terms of place of worship/community center/athletics facilities/daycare and all the other things a JCC does in a community.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The fact that it's not a federal issue is sort of beside the point. It's definitely a political issue, and the president is a political as well as a governmental official. Then there's the whole bully-pulpit thing.

It's a no-win situation. If a he says nothing, he'll be pilloried by political opponents (and perhaps by political allies) for not taking a stand on the issue. If he says something, he'll be pilloried for what he says. If he says "it's not a federal issue" he'll be criticized for not taking a stand.

It's politics.

Yes and he was at an iftar, it was one of those things where he "had" to say "something."

Originally Posted by agzg

I was under the understanding (and it may be mistaken) that this was more than "just a mosque" - I thought it was supposed to be a multi-level community center.

The comparison may not fit completely with what the Y has become in recent decades, but I think it certainly fits with JCC in terms of place of worship/community center/athletics facilities/daycare and all the other things a JCC does in a community.

Yes, it's more like a JCC with the equivalent of a chapel (dedicated prayer space). Currently it's just a prayer space mostly as overflow from the two other mosques nearby - one more conservative, one very progressive.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by agzg

I was under the understanding (and it may be mistaken) that this was more than "just a mosque" - I thought it was supposed to be a multi-level community center.

The comparison may not fit completely with what the Y has become in recent decades, but I think it certainly fits with JCC in terms of place of worship/community center/athletics facilities/daycare and all the other things a JCC does in a community.

It's a mosque with a tennis court. The YMCA is a "church with a tennis court" and the JCC is a "synagogue with a tennis court" in many areas where their foundations have never been hidden under their community centers theme.

Some of this depends on how things are in the areas that we have lived. The YMCA is still the YMCA for many of us (it will never just be "the Y" to me) and the JCC will always be the JCC. The clientelle and services provided are in line with their Christian and Jewish foundations (part of which emphasizes outreach), as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy both the YMCA and the JCC. I use the YMCA and the JCC (because I have Jewish family members and I'm one of the few nonJewish customers and staff that I usually see there).

So, it is no surpise if people can't overlook the "place of worship" image. Also, as you stated regarding the age of the YMCA as compared to the JCC, the Islamic community center theme is new for many people. It isn't a more mainstream concept. The Jewish community center theme used to be new and some areas had to adjust to it. If the Islamic community center is ever built and the newness wears out, people may eventually think of the ICC similar to how they view the YMCA and JCC.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So, it is no surpise if people can't overlook the "place of worship" image. Also, as you stated regarding the age of the YMCA as compared to the JCC, the Islamic community center theme is new for many people. It isn't a more mainstream concept. The Jewish community center theme used to be new and some areas had to adjust to it. If the Islamic community center is ever built and the newness wears out, people may eventually think of the ICC similar to how they view the YMCA and JCC.

I know this is semantics, but I wasn't comparing the age of the YMCA to the age of the JCC or the age of this potential ICC, and in my opinion it's an important distinction which is central to my point.

A. Just because it's older doesn't mean it's better and while it may be more commonplace to society as a whole, there's little benefit to saying "well, the Y is better because we're used to it and it's all white people there" or "oh, well, Pittsburgh has a JCC in Squirrel Hill, and no one died there, so JCCs are OK but ICCs are not" or something equally ridiculous (yes, I realize these are exaggerations to what people may be saying/thinking but I'm trying to make a point that splitting hairs between religions when the proposed function is essentially the same is pretty ridiculous as well).

B. My point with the whole "what the YMCA has become in recent decades" was that the YMCA has actively been distancing itself, at least on the outside, from its original mission in an attempt to be more inclusive, while at least most of the JCCs that I'm familiar will have not done so.

If people want to characterize it as a mosque, that's fine, but the correlation between the Y and JCCs is not irrelevant when considering the actual FUNCTIONS that the proposed structure would be there to perform. One cannot make the assumption that because it includes a place of worship that the primary function would be "a place of worship" in practice, just like many JCCs don't function primarily as a place of worship (at least those that I know, YMMV based on the community in question and the resources available) and (also YMMV) none of the YMCAs that I have ever even been to function primarily as a place of worship.

I don't speculate as to what the breakdown of function would be, it could totally be used as a mosque. But, I'm OK with that, anyway.

I don't like that people are emphasizing religion so much with Ground Zero, anyway, but I don't need to preach as to the blindness that extremists of any religion or nationality or what-have-you tend to see "outsiders" to their particular line of thinking.

[Splash]

It's not ON ground zero, it's near it, just as close as any other building could be. I would have a problem with it if it were on GZ though, because I think there should be a 9/11 memorial.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Splash

It's not ON ground zero, it's near it, just as close as any other building could be.

Some of the other things in similar proximity are OTB and a titty bar.

Just saying is all.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Some of the other things in similar proximity are OTB and a titty bar.

Just saying is all.

Didn't you know? Titties and gambling are things that REAL AMERKINS DO.

But, obviously, NO muslims are REAL AMERKINS.

[DaemonSeid]

with all this bickering back and forth about this, I guess people forgot that there is a place (a non denominational chapel) in the Pentagon where Muslims are allowed to worship...I guess no one minds that.

@Splash, the memorial is going to be the building that they are building on the site....heh

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

with all this bickering back and forth about this, I guess people forgot that there is a place (a non denominational chapel) in the Pentagon where Muslims are allowed to worship...I guess no one minds that.

Why does that matter? It is a chapel. The overall point isn't to eliminate Muslims or keep Muslims from having places to worship.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

with all this bickering back and forth about this, I guess people forgot that there is a place (a non denominational chapel) in the Pentagon where Muslims are allowed to worship...I guess no one minds that.

I don't see the similarity between a non-denominational DoD operated chapel and a privately funded and owned Islamic center.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I don't see the similarity between a non-denominational DoD operated chapel and a privately funded and owned Islamic center.

"OMG MUSLIMS WORSHIP WHERE AMERICANS DIED*"

*non-whites, non-Christians, foreign visitors or employees and anyone who didn't vote for our guy excluded


If people had been arguing against an Islamic Center instead of a "Mosque at Ground Zero" you'd have a point

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

"OMG MUSLIMS WORSHIP WHERE AMERICANS DIED*"

*non-whites, non-Christians, foreign visitors or employees and anyone who didn't vote for our guy excluded


If people had been arguing against an Islamic Center instead of a "Mosque at Ground Zero" you'd have a point

What??

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

What??

The people raising a huge fuss were arguing about there being a "mosque at Ground Zero." Currently there are Muslims praying at the Pentagon with amazingly no ill effects.

While you're right, park51 and the space at the Pentagon are different, people weren't making any such distinctions when it suited them.

[Drolefille]

Someone compared the current attitude towards Muslims to the anti-communist witchhunts of the 50s. I'm not sure it's a bad comparison.