kappa sigma at fgcu?

[LaneSig]

KSig Advisor-

What I am getting from your post is this: Kappa Sigma does not want to be PART of the NIC, but wants to use NIC POLICIES and expects SUPPORT from NIC when you backdoor a colony. Do I have that correct?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

KSig Advisor-

What I am getting from your post is this: Kappa Sigma does not want to be PART of the NIC, but wants to use NIC POLICIES and expects SUPPORT from NIC when you backdoor a colony. Do I have that correct?

[jennyj87]

In case any of you want to watch the news coverage.
http://www.fox4now.com/Global/story.asp?S=12240364
http://www.fox4now.com/ and search FGCU and it comes up as the first couple links.

The process is simple as far as I understand. IFC votes to see if they want to expand. If they don't, they don't. If they do, they invite fraternitys on campus to present. This happened in 2008 when Sigma Chi came on campus.

I don't understand how they can say they "don't understand".

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

In case you don't understand and you are already formulating responses in your heads, please keep reading- the IFC can do whatever it wants. IFC is a voluntary organization comprised of the fraternities on campus. IFC does not have to allow Kappa Sigma into IFC. It can write up any rules it would like, and the current members, as they did on March 24th, can hold a closed ballot (secret, and very weak) vote and exclude Kappa Sigma from joining. FGCU, however, as a public institution, is legally bound to provide Kappa Sigma with the same liberties it affords to the other fraternities already on campus, which includes providing meeting space on campus. FGCU cannot infringe upon our civil liberties merely because some of the students on campus (IFC) don't want us on campus. This will be remedied, I promise you. FGCU has no legal ground to stand upon, but I can't get into it any further.

No. Epic fail.

A public institution cannot suspend or discipline students for joining the org, but it is not "legally bound" to provide a group that they didn't invite or approve with meeting spaces, mail privileges etc. Your argument will open the doors to Hitler Youth Corps, Greenpeace, JC Chasez Fan Club demanding space on campuses even if they don't meet the definition of a registered student org.

You obviously aren't in favor of civil liberties for students, since the students in charge of your particular IFC DID vote, and they voted that they didn't want you on campus. If they (as you allege) voted against their national orgs because they thought it was the wrong thing for the campus and because y'all were douches...well, more power to them. I'm sure there are times when students are buffaloed into things they don't want to do by the higher ups, good to see someone standing up to it.

Form the colony as an off campus group and go about your business. Most likely, if you hang in there, you will eventually be approved as a registered student org/IFC member - but not if you keep whining and stamping your feet and singing "don't care how I WANT IT NOW!!"

Honestly, you guys all need to STOP POSTING. You sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

. . . and since none of you have any real life experience, please listen for a moment before you form your retorts.

Now, you know what happens when you assume.

Of course we all fight this perception, but the fraternity responds that even if such were true, there are less restrictive means to uphold campus structure than a complete ban on all Greeks, and that such a complete ban is unconstitutional since fraternities and sororities are protected classes called "expressive organizations" which are entitled to complete protection of the first amendment as decided by the Supreme Court in 1972.

Healy v James?

And can you provide a cite for any case holding that public colleges and universities must recognize Greek life, because I know of no such cases. Public institutions cannot prohibit membership in Greek organizations, and if Greek life is recognized, then the same rules must apply to all GLOs, but I know of no case saying that Greek life must be recognized. (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since FGCU does recognize Greek life.)

This is a legal question, not a question of fact, and so it is decided by a judge. The test applied is a balancing test weighing each groups rights, i.e., the school's interest in setting their own policies (banning all Greeks) and the fraternity's rights to exercise their first amendment rights at a public institution. (Side note, this balancing test is inapplicable at private schools, in case you were wondering. Private schools play by their own rules. Public schools, such as FGCU, are state entities funded by taxpayer monies, and have to follow the same rules as the government, i.e. they can't discriminate against student groups). The outcome usually depends upon the jurisdiction and the judges, and each jurisdiction has it's own set of factors they consider.

Are you suggesting that when First Amendment rights are at issue, various jurisdictions can apply strict scrutiny standards other than the standards adopted by the Supreme Court of the United States? Or are you just noting that states may have greater protections than those afforded by the First Amendment?

By recognizing the fraternities already on campus, but denying Kappa Sigma those same rights, FGCU is blatantly discriminating against Kappa Sigma. . . . FGCU, however, as a public institution, is legally bound to provide Kappa Sigma with the same liberties it affords to the other fraternities already on campus, which includes providing meeting space on campus. FGCU cannot infringe upon our civil liberties merely because some of the students on campus (IFC) don't want us on campus. This will be remedied, I promise you. FGCU has no legal ground to stand upon, but I can't get into it any further.

From what I can see, you are grossly overstating an equal protection analysis. If you've read the cases, you know that the expressive association of which you speak is the right to associate for the purposes protected by the First Amendment: speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion.

FGCU clearly does not appear to dicriminate against Greek-letter organizations on these grounds -- the existence of fraternities and sororities at the school puts that argument to rest. Nor is Kappa Sigma being "discriminated" against because of any activity protected by the First Amendment. It's not a matter, say, of Kappa Sigma requiring a belief in God, while the school says that recognized organizations cannot exclude students on the basis of religion. Nope, from what I've seen, the Kappa Sigma colony is not being recognized because it failed/refused to follow the procedures that apply to all fraternities for colonization and recogniztion.

FGCU did provide the Kappa Sigma colony with the same liberties it provided other fraternities -- or at least it provided it with the opportunity for those liberties. If the colony is being deprived of those liberties, it appears to be due to the colony's own choices, not discrimination by FGCU. Doesn't sound like a promising equal protection or First Amendment case to me.

You are simply young, uneducated, and wrong. We were all there once.

Yep. I was indeed there once. But these days I'm a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar with 20+ years of practice in constitutional law under my belt. How about you?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

If you guys who are posting are really a part of a fraternity (or sorority, Jenny 87?), you should be ashamed of yourselves. The "system" and "rules" which you are trying to uphold are nonsensical as applied universally and that's why not one single national fraternity (whether they choose to expand often of not) supports such a position.



Now, for those of you who support this idea of limited and "systematic" expansion by the IFC, query what the broader effects are of such a policy. In other words, think about how such a policy would actually play out in the real world. What you are supporting is a system whereby fraternities race to the new campuses all across the nation, set up shop, then band together and vote to keep the other fraternities out until the ones who simply arrived first are "ready" and "healthy."

When each fraternity is ready to expand and wants to go to a new campus, then they may, regardless of who was there first. It's called the free market. The market will decide how many groups a campus will support.
The method of operation by the IFC is unsupportable by logic or in practice, which is evidenced by the fact that none of the local fraternities at FCGU have the support of their national organizations (adults who know the issues and have been around the block a time or two). Sure, you kids think you know it all now, but one day you'll grow up gain a broader perspective of how life really works and why free expansion is the only policy that makes sense.

For now, however, our fight is with FGCU, not with the IFC. We are fighting for our constitutional right to be recognized commensurate with the other fraternities on campus. For those who disagree and think that it's acceptable for a public institution to prohibit a bunch of students from exercising their rights on campus solely because some of their fellow students didn't "vote" them in, someday you will realize you're wrong. This day may come soon or it may not come until you or someone in your family is discriminated upon, but it will come. And when it does, I hope you seek out the undergraduate students whom you spent so much energy trying to keep off campus and offer your apologies for denying them the same rights you enjoyed during your college years. I don't blame you, and I don't think any of you are doing so with malice. You are simply young, uneducated, and wrong. We were all there once. One day you will open your minds, realize you are supporting an illogical and unfair system (perhaps because you've been taught that way and don't know any better), and decide to stand up for your fellow students who only seek the same rights you enjoy. I only hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

Wow. Where does one begin?

Condescending. Unfamiliar. Those are a couple of the adjectives that come to mind when reading this post.

You obviously haven't been a member of GC. The majority of us are alumns of our respective fraternities and sororities. Many of us are/have been chapter advisors to both established chapters and colonies. Many of us have either volunteered for our inter/national groups or have worked for our groups.

We understand the issues going on at FGCU. Really, we do. What it boils down to is this: Some guys didn't like the current fraternities. Did they go as a group to the Greek Life Office and say this, explaining their issues and their request to look for a new fraternity? Or, did they form a new group on their own, look around for a fraternity, liked Kappa Sigma, and contacted them? (From some earlier posts, that's the way it sounds.) Kappa Sigma talked to them, liked what they saw, and said "We'd love to have you guys as a group."

Did Kappa Sigma or the young men starting the group ever look/ask about FGCU's expansion policies before this all started? If not, that was poor planning and you got blindsided by a rule that you should have checked into.
If yes, then you saw the rule that says that unrecognized colonies/expansions could not be recognized for 5 years and decided, "To hell with it. We'll do it anyway." Either way, there is an established rule that is non-discriminatory because it does apply to any Greek organization. If they were applying it to you, and then (for example) Phi Lambda Chi is acccepted even though they had a non-recognized expansion, I can guarrantee you that you would have my full support.

I keep hearing that you have all the NIC Inter/National Offices supporting you. Well, then, they need to check the Expansion Resolution from the NIC. Especially the last section:

"To provide students with context for the benefits and lessons of expansion, the members of the Conference agree to:

*Educate their undergraduate chapters, the Interfraternity Council leaders and interested alumni about the overall benefits and responsibilities of expansion and to foster ongoing support for the growth of the fraternity movement;
*Offer only those statements and promises in expansion discussions which accurately reflect capabilities;
*Encourage the highest academic, social, and moral standards among all interested students in all expansion endeavors;
*Make every reasonable attempt to coordinate expansion efforts with the administration and with the Interfraternity Council of colleges and universities at which they are pursuing expansion opportunities;
*Recognize that the size of a member fraternity is not indicative of that member fraternity's ability to administer an expansion project at an institution;
*Respect the right of any organized collegiate group to seek a member fraternity of its choice in an effort to affiliate with that general fraternity; and
*Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

^^ See that one: "Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status." Before, not during, not after. Before.
Plain and simple.

No one here is against expansion or for discrimination. We are for properly done expansions and following rules.

And, let me say again, I really don't understand why you want support from Inter/National Offices of an Organization that you choose not to be a member.

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

The FOX coverage was not 100% accurate. We know how the expansion process works and do indeed plan to change it in favor of an open expansion model. Undeniably, it would be advantageous for all parties if the policies and procedure were ammended in such a way. So, having said this - if Sigma Alpha Epsilon hears of the change in IFC's expansion policy and wants to come on, our Kappa Sigma delegate would vote in favor of this expansion (following procedures of open expansion). Our colony and our alumni recognize the bigger picture here. That picture being that it is not all about us... but also for other students and organizations down the road. Within the next five years, FGCU undergraduate enrollment is projected to increase by 5,000 students (from roughly 10,000 to 15,000). It is estimated that roughly 80% of all Southwest Florida high school graduates are enrolling at FGCU. The campus is evolving at such a streamline pace... enrollment, organizations, buildings, majors, etc. Why not greek life as well? It really is astonishing that Greek Life is being so conservative in the wake of such growth.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

The FOX coverage was not 100% accurate. We know how the expansion process works and do indeed plan to change it in favor of an open expansion model. Undeniably, it would be advantageous for all parties if the policies and procedure were ammended in such a way. So, having said this - if Sigma Alpha Epsilon hears of the change in IFC's expansion policy and wants to come on, our Kappa Sigma delegate would vote in favor of this expansion (following procedures of open expansion). Our colony and our alumni recognize the bigger picture here. That picture being that it is not all about us... but also for other students and organizations down the road. Within the next five years, FGCU undergraduate enrollment is projected to increase by 5,000 students (from roughly 10,000 to 15,000). It is estimated that roughly 80% of all Southwest Florida high school graduates are enrolling at FGCU. The campus is evolving at such a streamline pace... enrollment, organizations, buildings, majors, etc. Why not greek life as well? It really is astonishing that Greek Life is being so conservative in the wake of such growth.

More fraternities =/= to stronger Greek Life, at least not always.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

The FOX coverage was not 100% accurate. We know how the expansion process works and do indeed plan to change it in favor of an open expansion model. Undeniably, it would be advantageous for all parties if the policies and procedure were ammended in such a way. So, having said this - if Sigma Alpha Epsilon hears of the change in IFC's expansion policy and wants to come on, our Kappa Sigma delegate would vote in favor of this expansion (following procedures of open expansion). Our colony and our alumni recognize the bigger picture here. That picture being that it is not all about us... but also for other organizations down the road. Within the next five years, FGCU undergraduate enrollment is projected to increase by 5,000 students (from roughly 10,000 to 15,000). It is estimated that roughly 80% of all Southwest Florida high school graduates are enrolling at FGCU. The campus is evolving at such a streamline pace... enrollment, organizations, buildings, majors, etc. Why not greek life as well? It really is astonishing that Greek Life is being so conservative in the wake of such growth.

"conservative". Hmm. Well that depends. Does FGCU want each fraternity to have a good amount of members, or do they want each to be struggling to keep members? not saying any of them are right now, but what if they let 4 fraternities on at one time and then each only has 10-14 members?
I know IFC has an information session in the fall. Are tehre really that many men interested in the fraternities that are getting turned down?

Things to think about. I do not agree with Kappa Sigmas "vote to let them come on no matter what" policy. That just doens't make sense.

Also if the FOX coverage was so wrong, maybe you should talk to them. Because their biggest pushing part of that story is that kappa sigma has "no idea why they can't come on campus".

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

Originally Posted by jennyj87

Also if the FOX coverage was so wrong, maybe you should talk to them. Because their biggest pushing part of that story is that kappa sigma has "no idea why they can't come on campus".

We know of the policies and procedures. However, those policies and procedures do not make sense to us and any explanation recieved for them thusfar have been insignificant. The policies seem to have no root, no causation... at least no legitimate causation. Its like we are asking "Why?" and all we are getting in response is "Because." Would you be satisfied with such a lackluster reply?

Rules and regulations are meant to be challenged. If challenged (this case) and proven to be faulty or inadequate, rules and regulations are ammended. Historically, this is how it always has been. Why is this case any different? Shall we cement the current IFC bylaws in impenetrable stone??? I think not, we think not, Kappa Sigma thinks not.

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

We know of the policies and procedures. However, those policies and procedures do not make sense to us and any explanation recieved for them thusfar have been insignificant. The policies seem to have no root, no causation... at least no legitimate causation. Its like we are asking "Why?" and all we are getting in response is "Because." Would you be satisfied with such a lackluster reply?

Rules and regulations are meant to be challenged. If challenged (this case) and proven to be faulty or inadequate, rules and regulations are ammended. Historically, this is how it always has been. Why is this case any different? Shall we cement the current IFC bylaws in impenetrable stone??? I think not, we think not, Kappa Sigma thinks not.

not at fgcu. please understand, the ifc is abiding by the governance of the fgcu administration. greek life is on the campus at their discretion. it is a privilege to have greek life there-it is not a right.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

We know of the policies and procedures. However, those policies and procedures do not make sense to us and any explanation recieved for them thusfar have been insignificant. The policies seem to have no root, no causation... at least no legitimate causation. Its like we are asking "Why?" and all we are getting in response is "Because." Would you be satisfied with such a lackluster reply?

Rules and regulations are meant to be challenged. If challenged (this case) and proven to be faulty or inadequate, rules and regulations are ammended. Historically, this is how it always has been. Why is this case any different? Shall we cement the current IFC bylaws in impenetrable stone??? I think not, we think not, Kappa Sigma thinks not.

Um that seems to be an IFC/University decision, not a random group of people who don't agree with it.

[oldu]

I don't know the details or how the original colonizers so badly offended the IFC & administration; however, I feel strongly that a group of students have the right to organize as a club or a fraternity if they so chose without the approval of either the IFC or the administration. Whether it was because they didn't like the groups already there or had a special attraction to Kappa Sigma I don't see why they need anybody but Kappa Sigma's approval. As a matter of fact, it was only in very recent years that these policies of first seeking IFC permission developed. The vast majority of older chapters of every fraternity and sorority organized as a group of friends that developed into a local group that ultimately sought out a national connection. I don't think the IFC can legally bar them from membership. I suspect the regulations say that the IFC is made up of all campus chapters and if they get their charter, they're in. While the Greek administrator may wish to exert much control over the process, he/she may find other students have a desire to make their own choices.

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

If those organizations bring competition to the table, then yes it does strengthen Greek Life. Like I said before, expansion policies could be drafted to put the capability of recognition ultimately in the hands of "university unrecognized organizations" while still not opening the flood gates.

How long do you think it would take a group of men to:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus? Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...). I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

Actually the current IFC bylaws at FGCU state under the expansion section, that any group to initiate members before recognition of the IFC is subject to 5 years of non-affiliation with IFC. The current expansion policies highly discourage positive growth of any non-recognized fraternal group.