kappa sigma at fgcu?

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

This thread is way too long, Can I get the Cliff's notes version?

Cliff notes version... group of students wanted to bring Kappa Sigma to FGCU. FGCU did not want to expand. Kappa Sigma colonized at FGCU officially on Dec 10, 2008. The men havent broken any written policies of the university. FGCU does not recognize Kappa Sigma.

The discussion is really; should they be allowed to use school facilities? Should they recognized by FGCU and/or IFC?

Some say they should have waited; that they are "bullying" their way on to campus.

Kappa Sigma feels that it has certain rights to be there on campus and should be allowed to use school facilities (outlined during the thread).

Think that's as straight forward and non-biased I can get on this...

[DrPhil]

You mean, we didn't QFP for every post? Darn.

[KSigAdvisor]

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

FLOUNCE!!!

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion.

Says the source of most of the nasty comments.

[stufield]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Last comment, ever:

Despite all of the bashing and derogatory terms thrown around on this thread, we should be able to disagree with members of our respective fraternal counterparts and still be able to advance Greek causes for the better good. We realize that challenging a school policy will have many effects. Some will say we flipped off the institution, some will say we disrespected the administration, and of course, others will say we should have simply walked away and waited for "our turn" to present to the IFC. We simply see it another way, and we have the right to challenge school policies that we think are unconstitutional. We are not flipping off the school, but inherently there will be bad feelings towards us when we tell the school we think they are wrong, and in turn, tell the other fraternities we think they should change their policies. We aren't complaining about any of this, we are just standing up for what we think is right. We knew the road ahead when we chose it. The road less traveled isn't always the easier road, but we accept our fate. Also, no one ever said we rely on NIC policies. We pointed to the NIC policies that member fraternities are supposed to support as buttressing our point that there should be open expansion at FGCU for all fraternities to be treated equal, and by not supporting open expansion, member groups at FGCU are internally inconsistent. If Spain were to leave the United Nations for political reasons, surely UN members wouldn't fault Spain for continuing to advocate for human rights just because they left the UN. Same premise applies to fraternities and our withdrawal from NIC. We don't have to be a member of NIC to advocate for open expansion. We will continue to do so equally on every campus and fight for the right for Greeks to be recognized on the same level as every other student group on a pubic college campus. Kappa Sigma isn't for creating umbrella organizations to "regulate" Greeks when this mandate isn't created for other student groups, such as religious groups, etc. Why should we be treated any differently? We are for equality across the board, now and always, regardless of the number of people in the minority position. I will say this again, if there is a Chapter of Kappa Sigma on a campus and your fraternity wants to expand to that university, we will be the first to extend the fraternal hand of friendship and welcome you aboard. This is the wrong forum to address our issues, as we're simply going to keep getting attacked. Hopefully we can agree to disagree, forget the nasty comments, and move on in a respectful and fraternal fashion. Thanks for the discourse, it has been fun. Off to class......

KSigAdvisor:

As someone who has been critical of some of your previous posts, I must compliment you on this one. Nobody has, or could have, put it any better.

Your point that fraternities, as student organizations, should not be treated any differently than other student groups should be well taken by other readers of this thread, as should your analogy that just because a country chooses not to be member of the United Nations does not mean that it should cease advocating and supporting certain principles that the United Nations espouses and advances. My only question would be whether or not nonfraternal student groups at FGCU require any form of permission from the FGCU administration before they can be established and gain formal/official recognition from the school. If they do, then fraternities are not being treated any differently than other school groups, as KSigAdvisor suggests they are.

Readers of this thread may be interested to know that Kappa Sigma has not always had a policy of establishing or recognizing colonies at certain schools notwithstanding the fact that those colonies have not obtained formal recognition from their host schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs. This policy is a relatively recent one, no more than five or six years old. I know of a number of schools over 20 or so years prior to that at which Kappa Sigma had very strong interest groups ... large numbers, very diverse individuals, strong academics, high visibility through membership/participation in a variety of other campus groups, everything a fraternity could want from an interest group ... but that the Fraternity made painful decisions not to recognize because those groups had not obtained and would not be receiving formal recognition from their host schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs ... either a school was not open for expansion at the time, or some other fraternity was selected to come on campus rather than Kappa Sigma. I don't pretend to know the specific circumstances that led to the change in policy. I do know that probably the first instance of it coming into practice was at Emory University, a prominent private university located in Atlanta, at which Kappa Sigma had a long-dormant active chapter, was conspicuous by its absence from Emory's large and healthy Greek system, and had been wanting to return for years. A strong interest group arose. But the Emory administration had a no-expansion policy at the time; it may also have advised Kappa Sigma that when the administration decided to open its fraternity to further expansion, it would not necessarily invite Kappa Sigma. In any case, the interest group decided to proceed anyway, and the fraternity supported it and awarded it colony status. The colony faced substantial opposition from both the Emory administration and the Emory IFC. But the colony pressed on and became such a positive force on the campus that the administration and the IFC could no longer ignore it or hope that it would eventually wither away without formal recognition. So that recognition was ultimately awarded, and the chapter (Alpha) has continued to this day as a strong member of the Emory fraternity system. So perhaps the Emory experience was the start of the policy. In any case, that same story has repeated itself with little or minor variation at several other campuses since then. Kappa Sigma presently has four or five active chapters and about the same number of colonies at schools where it still has not gained/earned formal recognition.

But Kappa Sigma has also decided not to recognize strong interest groups at other schools that were not prepared at the time to grant formal recognition to those groups. Often, those schools are private institutions rather than public ones; the constitutional arguments/considerations are much different at private colleges and universities than at public institutions. Each situation is considered by the powers that be in the Fraternity on an individual basis as it arises, and the decision to recognize or not recognize a particular interest group is then taken. Of course, not all members agree with every decision; some members would like to have seen the fraternity recognize certain groups that it decided not to recognize; other members, or perhaps the same members looking at a different situation, wish the Fraternity had not recognized certain groups that it did recognize ... exactly what happens in virtually every organization, large and small, fraternal and otherwise.

Several other fraternities, including Sigma Chi and Teke, also have chapters and colonies at schools where those groups lack formal school recognition. So the FGCU Kappa Sig colony carrying on without formal school recognition, perhaps even in the face of active opposition, is by no means a unique event either with regard to just Kappa Sigma or in the larger interfraternal world. From what I can glean from several postings on this thread, the colony members are perfectly aware of their situation and are willing to press on, and the colony evidently is at least holding its own at FGCU, if not thriving. The Fraternity is continuing to support it, and will charter it as an active chapter this coming weekend, if I have the date correct. Time well tell whether or not that chapter can continue to survive and prosper as an unrecognized entity at FGCU, or whether, as at Emory and several other schools, the administration and the IFC will ultimately have the good sense to recognize that the chapter is there to stay, is a positive force on campus, and should be accorded recognition.

[33girl]

It may be that the school has seen similar institutions that expanded their Greek systems too quickly, and ended up with messes. Sorry to say it, but if someone got burned further up the line, the people who come afterwards are the ones who have to deal with the medical bills.

I don't think that FGCU or the IFC is inherently anti-Kappa Sig, although that would be the easiest thing to believe....rather 1) they have learned from the mistakes of other schools and are being overly cautious and 2) as k_s said, there's stuff that isn't being mentioned here. Most sororities want there to be more fraternities...that's a no-brainer. If the sororities (and I don't mean a half dozen girls, I mean the sororities as groups) aren't supporting them, even under the table, that's a red flag as far as I'm concerned.

[Rambler1869]

Originally Posted by 33girl

2) as k_s said, there's stuff that isn't being mentioned here. Most sororities want there to be more fraternities...that's a no-brainer. If the sororities (and I don't mean a half dozen girls, I mean the sororities as groups) aren't supporting them, even under the table, that's a red flag as far as I'm concerned.

Think its safe to say, in any given situation there is always another part of the story. If there is something specific you're wondering about, let me know and I'll answer what I know about it.

As for the sororities as a group; I think it was discussed earlier that they can't due to various liabilities. However, here's something to consder... When I was an undegrad, it was a school policy regarding parties, that no matter where it was or who actually hosted the party, it was the guests perception of who's party it was, that the school went after. Meaning, that if 95 Pikes threw a party, and 5 Kappa Sigma's were there; if guests thought it was a Kappa Sigma party, it was in the school's eyes (I'm not saying I agree with that policy, but that is a different discussion). The point of bringing that up, is the whole idea of guilt by assocation. If there are known individual sorority members, from each sorority on campus that support these men, participate in their various functions, etc... I think that association is a good lead towards "under the table" support. As the organization itself cannot openly support, but individual members at large are there.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Think its safe to say, in any given situation there is always another part of the story. If there is something specific you're wondering about, let me know and I'll answer what I know about it.

As for the sororities as a group; I think it was discussed earlier that they can't due to various liabilities. However, here's something to consder... When I was an undegrad, it was a school policy regarding parties, that no matter where it was or who actually hosted the party, it was the guests perception of who's party it was, that the school went after. Meaning, that if 95 Pikes threw a party, and 5 Kappa Sigma's were there; if guests thought it was a Kappa Sigma party, it was in the school's eyes (I'm not saying I agree with that policy, but that is a different discussion). The point of bringing that up, is the whole idea of guilt by assocation. If there are known individual sorority members, from each sorority on campus that support these men, participate in their various functions, etc... I think that association is a good lead towards "under the table" support. As the organization itself cannot openly support, but individual members at large are there.

I beg to differ.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by Rambler1869

Think its safe to say, in any given situation there is always another part of the story. If there is something specific you're wondering about, let me know and I'll answer what I know about it.

Thank you for presenting the colony's point of view. It would be nice to have the University's reasoning behind what they have done/are doing (i.e. their "official" view). However, I doubt someone from the University will do so.

Regardless, I wish y'all the best and please come back and let us know how this plays out.

[ThetaDancer]

Is it my imagination or did the long-winded college student/KSig"advisor" delete a lot of his posts?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ThetaDancer

Is it my imagination or did the long-winded college student/KSig"advisor" delete a lot of his posts?

All of page 18 doesn't have a post from him. So I suspect you are correct.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by 33girl

All of page 18 doesn't have a post from him. So I suspect you are correct.

That and the page count went from 22 to 20....

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by jennyj87

That and the page count went from 22 to 20....

While his post count went to 2.

Can't help wondering if he was . . . encouraged . . . to take them down.