Private Pool Bans Minority Campers

[Kevin]

I doubt it'd be a very big deal. I don't have a membership list of Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club (probably the most prestigious in town), but I'd assume just based upon the complexion of the community, it already has quite a few Lebanese (Lebanese are very wealthy and influential minority in OKC). I would think your hypothetical candidate wouldn't have a tough time getting in at all.

The Senior Partner of a law firm my father was a partner in once recruited him to join that Club. Dad didn't pursue it as he's more into fishing than golfing. Dad's boss was an outspoken anti-semite and racist though (despite his life-long business partner being Jewish). He's long dead though. I don't know what that says about the current membership, but at least as recently as the 80's and early 90's, I doubt a minority would have gotten a fair shake at that Club. That's rank speculation on my part though. I'm not around those people anymore and almost certainly wouldn't make the 'cut' to be considered there myself.

[starang21]

these are private clubs, correct?

[Kevin]

Those Civil Rights Acts only apply to state action.

In fact, I referred early on to the Katzenbach v. McClung case -- the case which said that restaurants and places of public accommodation could not discriminate based on race because to do so had too much of an effect on interstate commerce (can't remember the exact holding, but you can Google it). Anyhow, Ollie's BBQ, the defendant in that case, a restaurant in Birmingham, AL, which wanted to be whites only lost the case. Rather than opening their doors to blacks though, they simply announced that they were a private club and they only served members... who were all white. They continued to operate like that until they were later purchased by a Baptist Minister who did away with that nonsense. That was the case though which really opened up the doors to lunch counter sit-ins, which as you know were a major part of the civil rights movement in the 60's (at least they were here in OKC).

At any rate, you'd have to make the argument that perceived racial discrimination in membership selection (which can't be proved) is state action.

I don't think the interstate commerce argument would fly today. That doctrine has been in a state of contraction lately.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those Civil Rights Acts only apply to state action.

In fact, I referred early on to the Katzenbach v. McClung case -- the case which said that restaurants and places of public accommodation could not discriminate based on race because to do so had too much of an effect on interstate commerce (can't remember the exact holding, but you can Google it). Anyhow, Ollie's BBQ, the defendant in that case, a restaurant in Birmingham, AL, which wanted to be whites only lost the case. Rather than opening their doors to blacks though, they simply announced that they were a private club and they only served members... who were all white. They continued to operate like that until they were later purchased by a Baptist Minister who did away with that nonsense. That was the case though which really opened up the doors to lunch counter sit-ins, which as you know were a major part of the civil rights movement in the 60's (at least they were here in OKC).

At any rate, you'd have to make the argument that perceived racial discrimination in membership selection (which can't be proved) is state action.

I don't think the interstate commerce argument would fly today. That doctrine has been in a state of contraction lately.

That's why most restaurants have the "right to refuse service" to whomever they want without (hopefully) explanation.

But this case is different: it included pre-arranged verbal/written contract that included an agreed exchange of funds, ~$2000. The innercity group provided the transportation and the counselors.

If there was a modicum of behavior this country club wanted, that needed to be explicitly stated when the agreed verbal/written funds were exchanged, not during when the kids jumped into the pool and acted all kind of crazy--which kids do when they see the water...

If membership stated ignorant comments, then from a business perspective, I find the owner at fault for not tracking they kinds of members his/her club upholds. Sheer marketing these days commands some level of demographics. Seriously, if you don't know your demographic, who are you trying to serve...

When I say, "this ain't your granddaddy's country club--these days"--that includes a corporate branding perspective, too...

[Kevin]

The group can sue the club for damages on the breach of the contract if it wants, but that'd be difficult considering the group got its money back and other facilities have offered free use of their facilities, so the group has actually obtained substitute performance for less than they originally bargained for.

Otherwise, the $2,000 granted them a license to use the premises which was freely revocable by the licensor, who again, as above is only on the hook for damages.

And there can't be punitive or exemplary damages here because those sorts of damages are not available in contract suits.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The group can sue the club for damages on the breach of the contract if it wants, but that'd be difficult considering the group got its money back and other facilities have offered free use of their facilities, so the group has actually obtained substitute performance for less than they originally bargained for.

Otherwise, the $2,000 granted them a license to use the premises which was freely revocable by the licensor, who again, as above is only on the hook for damages.

And there can't be punitive or exemplary damages here because those sorts of damages are not available in contract suits.

You are a contract lawyer, correct? So is that all they can do?

The other is report to BBB or broadcast the foul behavior experienced by the children. And do not let a viral video jump up.

But that is a big mistake in this country club's corporate branding efforts, conflict resolutions and other pending issues.

What we read/saw in the news is minuscule to the internal problems this business really has--stuff we will never see. But, I'd say if his business doesn't go under with a year, I'd be shocked... You just cannot stay in business without a major overhaul and restructuring with an incident like that looming overhead.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

You are a contract lawyer, correct? So is that all they can do?

I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But yeah, based on generally universal principles of law, there's nothing to be sued over here... unless PA has some sort of weird thing I don't know about.

The other is report to BBB or broadcast the foul behavior experienced by the children. And do not let a viral video jump up.

But that is a big mistake in this country club's corporate branding efforts, conflict resolutions and other pending issues.

Who knows? Apparently they have at least some clientèle who didn't object to kicking the kids out... so internally, they might think it's all a big misunderstanding or that they didn't want any AA kids running around their pool.. your guess is as good as mine.

This might cost them something, but how much? I'd be shooting completely in the dark.

What we read/saw in the news is minuscule to the internal problems this business really has--stuff we will never see. But, I'd say if his business doesn't go under with a year, I'd be shocked... You just cannot stay in business without a major overhaul and restructuring with an incident like that looming overhead.

I'm not so sure it's going to register as that big of an event on their books. Who knows?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Kevin]

Other than being old, and I mean old as in Lo Pan old (Big Trouble/Little China), what is there about the Nittany Lions a Sooners fan would even care about?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Other than being old, and I mean old as in Lo Pan old (Big Trouble/Little China), what is there about the Nittany Lions a Sooners fan would even care about?

LOL!!! Are we ready for some College Game Day!!!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

LOL!!! Are we ready for some College Game Day!!!

Most definitely. Can't wait to see Oklahoma put up crazy numbers, go undefeated and lose another damn National Championship game to the SEC flavor of the year.

[Kevin]

FWIW, one of my MBE review questions posed a hypo not unlike this one. The answer to it was bizarre -- that the Thirteenth Amendment would prohibit this sort of discrimination. I didn't follow or agree with the analysis, but it was one of those "choose the best answer" sorts of questions. So maybe an argument could be made under the Thirteenth Amendment that the government has a duty to stamp out the 'badges and incidents' of slavery.

-- I'm not buying that though, not touching it with a ten-foot pole.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

FWIW, one of my MBE review questions posed a hypo not unlike this one. The answer to it was bizarre -- that the Thirteenth Amendment would prohibit this sort of discrimination. I didn't follow or agree with the analysis, but it was one of those "choose the best answer" sorts of questions. So maybe an argument could be made under the Thirteenth Amendment that the government has a duty to stamp out the 'badges and incidents' of slavery.

-- I'm not buying that though, not touching it with a ten-foot pole.

Yeah . . . without the benefit of, well, any sort of reading whatsoever on review or interpretation thereof, I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around that use of the 13th Amendment. It's an interesting angle, though.

[Kevin]

I don't recall, but was/were (can't decide whether it's a plural or singular thing) the Slaughter House Cases about the 13th or 14th Amendment? I guess that'd be a starting point if it talked about the 13th.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't recall, but was/were (can't decide whether it's a plural or singular thing) the Slaughter House Cases about the 13th or 14th Amendment? I guess that'd be a starting point if it talked about the 13th.

The Slaughterhouse Cases talked about both the 13th and 14th Amendment (although I think the big takeaway was the discussion of the 14th Amendment (privileges or immunities).

I would be interested to see how a 13th Amendment analysis plays into the hypo, because I can't really think of a way off the top of my head.