Hamas vs Israel in the streets of Gaza

[Kevin]

You nor I even know for a fact that it was Israel who attacked the U.N., nor do we have knowledge of why Israel might have done this if they did it [Hamas could have been using it for a weapons dump].

The media isn't there because Israel doesn't want to get negative media attention for accidentally blowing up a few journalists. They're in a lose-lose situation there.

[SWTXBelle]

There is no dispute as to the bombing itself. Anonymous Israel sources are saying they did it in response to actions by those in the U.N. compound - but the official word is yet to come. But - Israel is not disputing the bombing occurred.

The fact that you will not concede even this point, but have to immediately come up with a scenario in which Israel is blameless speaks volumes.

FWIW, I don't think either side is blameless.

War journalists, by definition, take the risk of being killed as part of the job. Did Israel kick journalists out of its country? No. If they are in danger in Gaza, because Israel is responding to rocket attacks which are continuing, aren't they also in danger in Israel?

[Kevin]

Indisputable fact: Israel would not be currently invading Gaza if Hamas had stopped firing rockets and otherwise targeting Israeli citizens.

[SWTXBelle]

That's not a fact - that's an excuse. Israel could have chose to invade because of any number of reasons. That is the one they are using this time.

Given that you've already said neither you nor I can know as a fact something which is not disputed by any source I can find other than you, I think your use of the word "fact" is suspect. But it's a nice attempt at trying to turn the conversation away from some awkward logical points.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Kevin]

That does nothing to allay the indisputable fact that Israel would not be currently invading Gaza if Hamas had stopped firing rockets and otherwise targeting Israeli citizens.

You don't think that's a fact? You think that Israel would currently be invading regardless of whether rockets were fired? What reason would they have had to do that?

How has the U.S. typically responded to acts on its people? Protip: Not proportionally.

[SWTXBelle]

Yes, and our reaction to 9/11 resulted in our being in the quagmire of Iraq. Not only was it not proportional, we later learned that it wasn't even solely directed at the source of the 9/11 attack. You can make a case for our involvement in Afghanistan, but Iraq? Oh, that's right, they have weapons of mass destruction. That at one time was supposedly a "fact". So I don't think we were right, and I don't think Israel is either. You may not agree with me, but you cannot accuse me of not being consistent.

And yes, I believe that if Israel decided to attack Gaza they would do so, rockets or no. I think that Israel's actions demonstrate that they do not support a two-state solution. That would also explain the attack on Gaza, and in fact many of Israel's actions.

[agzg]

Fact: Hamas has been firing rockets at the town of Sderot, Israel, for a long time now, about once a month (sometimes 2-3 times a week).

Fact: Israel has attacked Gaza several times in response to these rockets. They have also attacked for other reasons.

I think these are the only indisputable facts in all of this. Minus fact #3.

Fact #3: This whole thing is a big mess, full of finger pointing and blaming.

I don't think either side is 100% responsible for what's going on. The whole thing, however, is sad, because so many innocents (on both sides) have paid for it with their lives.

[cheerfulgreek]

I know this may be kind of an awkward question, but does anyone think there will be a draft? I'm asking because Obama wants to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan. I'm just wondering if there will be an eventual draft.

[agzg]

I suppose I should add that terrorism is often originally a response to state action or policy, but not state action of a counter-terrorist nature. The US Invasion of Iraq was not, purely defined, a counter-terrorist action (no matter what anyone says!). The terrorist activity in Iraq is a reaction to the occupation, but as that is not a counter-terrorist activity, the terrorist activity itself is what sparks the dynamic.

[SWTXBelle]

Latest cease-fire agreement is up for a vote by Israeli Security Council.

http://news.aol.com/article/israel-gaza-conflict/232890

[DaemonSeid]

Israel likes to believe that its Defense Force is the world's most "moral" army, and it insisted throughout the recent Gaza war that great care was always taken to avoid inflicting civilian casualties. It may surprise and rile many Israelis, then, that their government is trying to protect its citizens from war crimes charges that could be filed in foreign courts over the conduct of hostilities in Gaza. Fearful that Israeli commanders could be targeted for arrest while traveling abroad as private citizens on business or vacation, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz on Tuesday ordered the Israeli media to refrain from revealing the names of any military personnel who took part in the 22-day offensive. Officers involved in the operation who want to travel abroad are now required to first check in with the office of the Judge Advocate, which will determine if the soldier is on a foreign watch list that might lead to his arrest.


Israeli military experts insist that their forces are far more careful to avoid civilian casualties than, say, the U.S. military has been in Iraq and Afghanistan. Still, the high civilian casualty toll in Gaza has put the Israeli military's conduct of operations there under scrutiny, and one senior U.N. official has suggested Israel may have committed "crimes against humanity" in the course of its campaign against Hamas militants hiding among Gaza's civilian population. Palestinian medical sources claim that over 300 children and 100 women were among Gaza's 1,200 fatalities. And the United Nations, Amnesty International, the International Committee for the Red Cross (I.C.R.C.), Human Right Watch, as well as Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups have all been investigating allegations of conduct that violates the laws of war


http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2009012...08599187349600

[RU OX Alum]

the brutality in gaza was as much about scarring Israeli (especailly the youth) into acting in line than it was about fighting Hamas. That makes their government terrorists.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

the brutality in gaza was as much about scarring Israeli (especailly the youth) into acting in line than it was about fighting Hamas. That makes their government terrorists.

Prove this. Otherwise, stop passing off opinion as fact in these threads - you come across as wildly flailing to make incendiary statements just to take a contrarian viewpoint, and I know that's not what you're intending (plus I'd like to learn something too).

While you're there, you probably need to disprove the 'null hypothesis' - that this is posturing for the upcoming Israeli elections by incumbents who fear being labeled as soft.

[RU OX Alum]

I don't have to prove anything, and I'll state my opinion in whichever thread I like.


Not everything needs to be broken down for you, and you should be able to discern fact from opinion at this point in your life

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

I don't have to prove anything, and I'll state my opinion in whichever thread I like.

You don't have to do anything. I was requesting it.

Not everything needs to be broken down for you, and you should be able to discern fact from opinion at this point in your life

What part of this do you think I have problems with? Add content. Not everything needs to be a post.