Second Presidential Debate

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes?

I think that, perhaps, it's a question of how one defines "fair share." To some people, everyone paying their fair share means, for example, everyone paying X%. (Of course, even under this simple formula, those who make more are paying more in fact, even if they are paying the same proportionally.)

Others would disagree that this is the fairest way to assess taxes. Say X% = 20%. 20% of $30,000 takes a much bigger chunk out of what is needed to live on than, say, 20% of $300,000. Hence, tax brackets in a progressive tax system like we have now. Of course, all of that gets muddled once deductions, credits and the like all get mixed into the equation.

I think that one can have "classist" reasons for thinking that the wealthier should pay more, and I think that others can have, for want of a better word, "honest" reasons for thinking so. And I don't think anyone can seriously question that the current tax structure is a mess and needs overhauling. I'll admit, though, that I don't know the best (and fairest) way to fix it; I doubt, though, that there's on;y one "right" way.

[WarEagle07]

Originally Posted by ajuhdg

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

Did he ever really struggle that much, though? I mean, both his father and stepfather had decent jobs (didn't his stepfather work for Mobil or something like that?), his mother had a college education (and a graduate degree, I believe), and, even when he was living with his grandparents, I thought that they were, at least, upper middle class. Also, as Munchkin pointed out, he did go to a rather prestigous private high school; again, that takes away, at least a little, with him being able to be in touch with the "regular American." I may be wrong on this, but beyond the divorce aspect, it seems like he came from an upper-middle class background.

I could see that he would face adversity growing up because of his race - but I think one could reasonably describe his life growing up as "comfortable." That's not to say McCain didn't have a good life growing up, but I don't think you can make that great a distinction between McCain and Obama in that way.

I see where you're going with your thoughts - as I've said many times, I didn't grow up with much money, and I know the every day stresses of the lower middle class American family all too well (although, as a white family in the Northeast, that does limit my understanding to a certain extent); I understand when a family has to make tough choices, sometimes between things such as medical care and food. I personally don't think either of these candidates truly understands that perspective, and honestly, that's fine with me. They don't have to empathize or sympathize with the struggles, as long as they work out reasonable domestic policy.

It's fine if you want to make these subjectively make these distinctions between McCain and Obama because of your own leanings, but I don't think, from an objective standpoint, that one could say that one candidate understands those types of struggles any more than the other.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

McCain:

So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it be very clear to you I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child from $3,500 to $7,000."

English 101:

Not raising taxes and not being in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy =/=

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy . . . .

What you said is absolute -- no taxation of the wealthy period. What you quoted doesn't say that.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

English 101:

Not raising taxes and not being in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy =/= What you said is absolute -- no taxation of the wealthy period. What you quoted doesn't say that.

History lesson....remember who said that:

No NEW taxes...and what happened?

Those taxes went UP

So let's not raise anybody's taxes,

But, how many candidates said that and taxes went up?

and those increased taxes affected who, exactly? (Rhetorical)

As the deficit increases in this country so do our taxes to pay for them...but when have we seen that apply to those who make millions and billions?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

See, some of us feel like Obama is FINALLY someone who can empathize with us and who FINALLY understands how we feel and sees the world from OUR point of view. That's why he feels like a breath of fresh air to us.

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

I was raised in a single parent household, for starters....

small difference, my father died when I was 5 weeks...

I still managed to make it thru school, college and did all of this in a rough environment and still have my head on straight.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

My answer goes much farther than social class. The things he talks about are the things I care about. Perhaps a lot of it is political propaganda, but he is talking about the things that matter most to me. He has been pushing for equal pay for equal work for women. I'm in agreement with him on issues like abortion and embryonic stem cell research. I think his health care plan will be more effective than McCain's, although I'm not sure either is the perfect answer. I agree with his views on Iraq but I don't feel like he would be 'soft' if we really need to go to war with someone. I agree with him on energy issues (that we need to move away from oil not just find more and that wind and solar are preferable to nuclear). And, while it has been minimized as unimportant and lacking any real duties, his work as a community organizer has put him more in touch with the issues that occur in lower income urban areas. Perhaps some of it is even related to where they serve. Detroiters can certainly relate to Chicago and it's problems more than they can to Arizona. To us, Arizona is the warm nirvana where people go to retire. Many of us see Chicago as the city that Detroit should've/could've been. Both have urban grit, but Chicago has the business/shopping/tourist districts that Detroit so desperately wants to have. I would probably feel like I could relate more to someone who served in New York than in Montana too.

That's my short answer, because this hard-working single mom has to get some groceries before her she gets her kids back from their dad tomorrow I can also say that I have it MUCH easier than many single moms because their dad is very involved in their lives (we have 50-50 custody). Financially it makes it tougher, but experientially, it's a much better deal.