Meet the US Army's 1st 4 star Female General

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

You're being too literal in your definition of "political ploy" - remember that any press is good press, and there is both a specific and general connection between McCain and the military in the minds of almost everyone. A simple, small gesture to give positive light to the military during a slow news cycle (and spawn this kind of discussion) can be effective even if no one literally says "NOW I'm voting McCain!"

This is the best summary of what I was trying to say while massively hungover from an epic night.
And DS... chill.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by pbear19

I'm surprised no one has mentioned (or did I miss it?) that PhiGam's basic premise is ridiculous in and of itself, regardless of whether it is demeaning or not. To be effective, a political ploy needs to make people more likely to vote for a certain candidate. Does anyone honestly think there are women out there who will decide to vote for McCain simply because the Army decided to promote a deserving woman to 4 star General? None of the women I know are quite that fickle, nor are they quite that illogical as to surmise that A has anything to do with B. If this is a political move intended to benefit McCain, the PR person in charge of it needs to be fired asap.

Its a subconscious thing, people's minds naturally seek association. If they start to associate the military with things that they view as positive (female accomplishment for example) and they associate the military with a certain presidential candidate (a war hero) then they ARE more likely to vote for that certain candidate then they were before. Admittedly, it does take pretty abstract logic to grasp the concept.
Basically
If Military= good and McCain=military then McCain=good.
Its a classic logical fallacy that political experts (which the military has plenty of) know how to exploit.

And just to repeat: I am NOT demeaning her achievements. My mother and two aunts have served in the armed forces and I have a huge respect for them. I just think that the timing of this is suspect.

[pbear19]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Admittedly, it does take pretty abstract logic to grasp the concept.
Basically
If Military= good and McCain=military then McCain=good.
Its a classic logical fallacy that political experts (which the military has plenty of) know how to exploit.

I understand the concept, but I think the logical fallacy is the assumption that anyone will make such a huge leap. One could surmise that this will make people look more favorably on the military in general, but to extrapolate that out to a political candidate with no concrete connection is taking it too far. (It's not like she has any personal connection to McCain that we know of, or that he had anything to do with her promotion.) This isn't that slow of a news cycle. I also think that fewer people than you might believe automatically connect McCain with all things military, but that's a personal opinion that I do not have stats to back up. Yes, he was a war hero, but it was a long time ago and doesn't mean he has immediate ties to all current military goings-on. If we were discussing someone recently removed from military experience the logic might work better. I agree that there is a chance this is political, but just because it is political doesn't mean it has anything to do with McCain.

Since I didn't say it before, accolades to her for her achievement, I'm sure it is well deserved and I am happy for her.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by pbear19

I understand the concept, but I think the logical fallacy is the assumption that anyone will make such a huge leap. One could surmise that this will make people look more favorably on the military in general, but to extrapolate that out to a political candidate with no concrete connection is taking it too far. (It's not like she has any personal connection to McCain that we know of, or that he had anything to do with her promotion.) This isn't that slow of a news cycle. I also think that fewer people than you might believe automatically connect McCain with all things military, but that's a personal opinion that I do not have stats to back up. Yes, he was a war hero, but it was a long time ago and doesn't mean he has immediate ties to all current military goings-on. If we were discussing someone recently removed from military experience the logic might work better. I agree that there is a chance this is political, but just because it is political doesn't mean it has anything to do with McCain.

Why is this any more fallacious than, say, you thinking that because you don't make the leap, no one will?

Or that the (perceived, or even relative) efficacy of the action has any bearing on whether or not the concept is possible?

[pbear19]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Why is this any more fallacious than, say, you thinking that because you don't make the leap, no one will?

Or that the (perceived, or even relative) efficacy of the action has any bearing on whether or not the concept is possible?

To answer the second point, I never said it wasn't possible, I said it is illogical. All kinds of illogical things are possible, but their possibility does not make them logical.

As to the first point, you are more than welcome to say that you disagree with my position, or that you find it to be illogical. I am not trying to prove the original point, I am merely stating my own opinion. My single opinion in some part disproves the original point, as did the opinion of the other people in this thread who disagreed with it. The person making the initial point has the onus of backing it up in some logical fashion, and I believe that was not done. Hence I consider the premise to be illogical. PhiGam didn't say maybe a couple of people will buy into it, and I didn't say that maybe a couple of people wouldn't. My interpretation of the original point was that PhiGam believes this to be an intentional political ploy with the possibility that a good number of people will make what I consider to be an illogical leap, and I am challenging that premise.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by pbear19

To answer the second point, I never said it wasn't possible, I said it is illogical. All kinds of illogical things are possible, but their possibility does not make them logical.

As to the first point, you are more than welcome to say that you disagree with my position, or that you find it to be illogical. I am not trying to prove the original point, I am merely stating my own opinion. My single opinion in some part disproves the original point, as did the opinion of the other people in this thread who disagreed with it. The person making the initial point has the onus of backing it up in some logical fashion, and I believe that was not done. Hence I consider the premise to be illogical. PhiGam didn't say maybe a couple of people will buy into it, and I didn't say that maybe a couple of people wouldn't. My interpretation of the original point was that PhiGam believes this to be an intentional political ploy with the possibility that a good number of people will make what I consider to be an illogical leap, and I am challenging that premise.

That's fair but obviously I don't have the resources to prove that this would have a significant effect or to prove the Army's motive behind the promotion. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that she is promoted during the slow news cycle that leads up to the first election since 2000 with a republican running without incumbent status. I, however, feel that it is entirely possible that this move was a political move by the military.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Its a subconscious thing, people's minds naturally seek association. If they start to associate the military with things that they view as positive (female accomplishment for example) and they associate the military with a certain presidential candidate (a war hero) then they ARE more likely to vote for that certain candidate then they were before. Admittedly, it does take pretty abstract logic to grasp the concept.
Basically
If Military= good and McCain=military then McCain=good.
Its a classic logical fallacy that political experts (which the military has plenty of) know how to exploit.

Just to throw something else out there...

Isn't it somewhat likely that at least one person might look at this and think:

Woman = Good
Not just a white male world anymore
Women and Minorities = Good
Obama = Good

Personally, I don't think it was a political move because the result is so flimsy. None of us will ever know though.

ETA: Just to clarify, I don't actually believe it was done to help Obama.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Just to throw something else out there...

Isn't it somewhat likely that at least one person might look at this and think:

Woman = Good
Not just a white male world anymore
Women and Minorities = Good
Obama = Good

Personally, I don't think it was a political move because the result is so flimsy. None of us will ever know though.

ETA: Just to clarify, I don't actually believe it was done to help Obama.

Thats a solid argument. I can almost guarantee that military leaders support McCain more than they would support Obama. I haven't met too many career military people who are democrats, even if their views are liberal.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by pbear19

I'm surprised no one has mentioned (or did I miss it?) that PhiGam's basic premise is ridiculous in and of itself, regardless of whether it is demeaning or not. To be effective, a political ploy needs to make people more likely to vote for a certain candidate. Does anyone honestly think there are women out there who will decide to vote for McCain simply because the Army decided to promote a deserving woman to 4 star General? None of the women I know are quite that fickle, nor are they quite that illogical as to surmise that A has anything to do with B. If this is a political move intended to benefit McCain, the PR person in charge of it needs to be fired asap.

I didn't miss it...that is what I was trying (and obviously failed) to point out....pbear...thank you for catching that also...

PG....get a clue.

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I didn't miss it...that is what I was trying (and obviously failed) to point out....pbear...thank you for catching that also...

PG....get a clue.

Saying the last word in an argument does not mean you won, a vast majority of the posters in this thread said that you were off base and out of line. Get over it.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Saying the last word in an argument does not mean you won, a vast majority of the posters in this thread said that you were off base and out of line. Get over it.

a vast majority?

1 or 2 other persons who agrees with your point is a vast majority?

....besides making wacko theories you cant count?


just call it quits now while u can.


What you really should have said...instead of trying to add McCain in (square block, round hole)

Does anyone suspect that her promotion is iffy....which you did in your first post...and just left it alone....that actually could have stood on its own...but to include the rest....nah...at that point it was laughable.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

a vast majority?

1 or 2 other persons who agrees with your point is a vast majority?

We never said we agree with his point. We said we understood his point.

You didn't understand his point which is why you were unable to do what pbear effectively did in one post.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

....besides making wacko theories you cant count?


just call it quits now while u can.

How about you call it quits? When you have to explain yourself this much, it's a FAIL.

(Of course you can post all you want to because that's what the board's for, it's just ironic that you told him to quit while he can. )

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

What you really should have said...instead of trying to add McCain in (square block, round hole)

Does anyone suspect that her promotion is iffy....which you did in your first post...and just left it alone....that actually could have stood on its own...but to include the rest....nah...at that point it was laughable.

POOR SAVE.

Stop recommending ways to say it better when others got his point. Just admit you didn't understand, and went on a tangent, and be done with it.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

POOR SAVE.

Stop recommending ways to say it better when others got his point. Just admit you didn't understand, and went on a tangent, and be done with it.

No...understood and thought that is was wrong. Thank you

[PhiGam]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

POOR SAVE.

Stop recommending ways to say it better when others got his point. Just admit you didn't understand, and went on a tangent, and be done with it.

Thank you darling