The Hazing Tradition

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I think that everyone understands the concept in theory.

We just don't understand why that is really a viable alternative for those members who truly value the rich histories, traditions, and practices that exist because of our (inter)national affiliations. And, of course, we're attempting to see this from the standpoint of the types of organizations where this sort of thing is more likely to apply.

Plus, the position was that this would be an increased occurrence (for IFC fraternities, I guess) and that's where the "discussion" really comes in.

Cannot agree with you more.

Todays kids that go to college are pretty smart and I think they would tend to go with tradition fof a National Fraternity for the future and what it could mean for them.

In pledgeing an off shoot or rouge GLO, what does one have? Just that small group, not the net work of a National and all of the GLOs who are out there in the real after graduation world.

National HQs do not make the regulations and rules, the membership does.

If a certain chapter does not want to abide by them, then try to change them. The Nationals run the daily business within the rules laid out to them.

If those rules are broken, they do make the decision to suspend or put on probation.

[macallan25]

Wanting to keep with tradition is exactly the reason some chapters break off. With these new programs that many fraternities are instituting in chapters......tradition and history is thrown out the window. Many of us have grown up around fraternities and certain chapters all of our lives. We know how they have operated, and it is disturbing when the MO is changed into something lesser than what we expect.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Many of us have grown up around fraternities and certain chapters all of our lives. We know how they have operated, and it is disturbing when the MO is changed into something lesser than what we expect.

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

So, these sense of entitlement and tradition should check mate what importance means/

No, I am not arguing with you on that point, but what mccallan said.

That was one of the most ignorant posts that I have seen when one is bigger than the whole.

So this one chapter tells the whole screw you we are going on our own and be better?

Sorry, how many ways can one spell stupid or ignorant?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

When you are told who you are supposed to rush, how long your pledge period has to be, what you can do, what you can't do, etc. etc. etc.............then yes, I feel that many of the traditions are being done away with.

Why can't I have a sense of self-entitlement in this situation? Is it bad? Many of these programs that nationals try to institute in chapters turns them all into watered down versions of their former self, imo.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by macallan25

When you are told who you are supposed to rush, how long your pledge period has to be, what you can do, what you can't do, etc. etc. etc.............then yes, I feel that many of the traditions are being done away with.

So there was a time when such regulations didn't exist at all? I'm curious.

Originally Posted by macallan25

Why can't I have a sense of self-entitlement in this situation? Is it bad? Many of these programs that nationals try to institute in chapters turns them all into watered down versions of their former self, imo.

I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

There's a difference between saying "these changes are at a detriment to the organization as a whole and we are petitioning for change" and saying "this isn't what my chapter brothers and I (who are a small % of the organization) thought we were signing up for when our fathers told us about this fraternity...so we're disaffiliating." What happens after you graduate?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

I can't speak for macallan, but I think by saying we know "how they operated", we're more discussing the conservatism of the chapter, pledgeship (because often we know from famiily or friends what it's suppose to be like, i.e. not 8 weeks long), and this sort of thing. Not the specific operations, but I'm clearly seeking a chapter operation that is conservative, like my upbringing.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

So there was a time when such regulations didn't exist at all? I'm curious.



I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

There's a difference between saying "these changes are at a detriment to the organization as a whole and we are petitioning for change" and saying "this isn't what my chapter brothers and I (who are a small % of the organization) thought we were signing up for when our fathers told us about this fraternity...so we're disaffiliating." What happens after you graduate?

I wasn't really talking about rituals and such in reference to knowing how our chapters operated.

Take for instance SAE down here at Texas. My dad went through at our chapter. So did tons of his friends. A bunch of my older friends went through here as well. I grew up around the house and got to hear them talk about it all the time. I went in to pledgeship knowing quite a bit about what to expect. How long the pledge program was going to be.......things of that nature.

I think you know my stance, as well as others on how the chapter relates to the whole so I wont' go there.

As far as what happens after I graduate......what do you mean?

[Low C Sharp]

one of their powerful alumni's son (a hemophiliac) was forced to crawl across broken glass and got cut up really bad.

Dayum. That's pathetic. If you ask me, that chapter would have done the world a favor by taking the kid out of the gene pool.
________
Prilosec Attorney

[33girl]

This thread is starting to remind me of "you can be against the war and still support the troops" or the opposite of that, and all the permutations thereof.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This thread is starting to remind me of "you can be against the war and still support the troops" or the opposite of that, and all the permutations thereof.

It reminds me more of the NPHC threads that debate paper vs. pledging since the NPHC groups did away with pledging. Some of the inter/national fraternities have not eliminated pledging completely, but have put a lot of restrictions on it that some chapters don't like.

I do find it interesting that these young men are seeing programs like the Balanced Man and Men of Principle type programs as a detriment. It seems to me that the goals of these programs are to help young men become gentlemen, obeying the law, readying themselves for gainful employment in leadership positions and holding high ideals. Is it simply that there is disagreement on how best to attain these goals?

[bowsandtoes]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I do find it interesting that these young men are seeing programs like the Balanced Man and Men of Principle type programs as a detriment. It seems to me that the goals of these programs are to help young men become gentlemen, obeying the law, readying themselves for gainful employment in leadership positions and holding high ideals. Is it simply that there is disagreement on how best to attain these goals?

At its core, the 'Balanced Man Program' is little more than a collegiate versions for the Boy Scouts. I could write a paper on the abomination that is the BMP but haven't really got the time. I'll point out a few....issues, that I have with the program.

"In 1989, SigEp instated the "Balanced Man Program" the BMP, as it is commonly known, is a program which focusses on the development of the individual, rather than the whole group"

This is the exact OPPOSITE of why I joined a fraternity. The BMP shifts the focus away from brotherhood towards the individual and personal gain. In the BMP you go through different 'levels' of brotherhood. A fraternity isn't a video game. Bonds of brotherhood take time, you don't just 'level up'. Each level has different requirements for personal goals (academics, community service, on-campus organizations, etc.) While nice and dandy, these can be accomplished alone and do nothing to promote brotherhood.

"Chapters are accepted into the Balanced Man Program only after an overwhelming majority of the chapter votes to convert from pledging model to Balance Man Project Chapter."

This a complete lie and the opposite of what happens. In almost every case nationals takes a struggling chapter and rather than offer to help, will force them to switch to a a BM program at the threat of removing their charter. Also, nationals won't colonize a new chapter unless they are BMP. The result is that the majority of BMP chapters are houses that are either brand new or are rebuilding from scratch. Of course the first thing nationals tells these chapters to do is get their numbers up. As all of you know its pretty hard to recruit when you already have a bad reputation on campus or none at all, so a lot of these chapters are extremely generous in their giving of bids (leading to nicknames of Sigma Phi Everyone at a lot of campuses). That open door policy along with the elimination of pledgeship means that people are signing their name, getting their letters, and learning aspects of the ritual right of the back. All of these factors lead to a lack of respect for BMP chapters at many campuses.

I could go on but time does not permit.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

This a complete lie and the opposite of what happens. In almost every case nationals takes a struggling chapter and rather than offer to help, will force them to switch to a a BM program at the threat of removing their charter. Also, nationals won't colonize a new chapter unless they are BMP. The result is that the majority of BMP chapters are houses that are either brand new or are rebuilding from scratch. Of course the first thing nationals tells these chapters to do is get their numbers up. As all of you know its pretty hard to recruit when you already have a bad reputation on campus or none at all, so a lot of these chapters are extremely generous in their giving of bids (leading to nicknames of Sigma Phi Everyone at a lot of campuses). That open door policy along with the elimination of pledgeship means that people are signing their name, getting their letters, and learning aspects of the ritual right of the back. All of these factors lead to a lack of respect for BMP chapters at many campuses.

I could go on but time does not permit.

Completely correct. Part of the reason you find very, very few good Sig Ep chapters in the South. Texas is mid-tier, Ole Miss is mid-tier, and SoCar is as well. Those are the best chapters (that I can think of) of Sig Ep in the South. They're not even tops on campus.

BMP completely ruined the chapter here. It's about to fall off soon.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Kappa Sigma doesn't have an umbrella program like the Balanced Man or Men of Principle that spans the entire fraternity, but we do have a rush program called "Most Wanted Man".
Because nationals has tried to implement a 6-week pledgeship, they want us to do a mid-semester rush.
No, really. It's true. Maybe if they cut down pledging to four weeks we can have three rushes each semester!

They also make their own estimates about how many pledges we should be getting each semester and send us our goals and a checklist to return to them.

Fortunately, I'm part of an established chapter with enough members and money to satisfy them, so we don't have to deal with most of it. But any new chapter or colony won't be able to start off very well with ridiculous rules like this.

I always thought that IFC and/or school had a greater say in rush matters?!?!?!? Learn something new every day here.

[oldu]

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently. If their program is that unpopular why are they so successful? What they are doing may not be what you are seeking from a fraternity, but obviously it is attractive to a lot of young men. You may be fooling yourselves. While you are judging groups by what you think is hot today, you may very well be working for the men who went through a balanced man program tomorrow. I am not a Sig Ep but I am certainly impressed by their success.