John McCain: Is he "Natural-Born"?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

A child born to two American parents outside of the U.S. is still an American citizen

That's what I always thought, but that's not what the State Department seems to be saying.

The issue is not whether John McCain is an American, but whether he is technically "natural born" and whether he fits the intended criteria to be President.

I agree. But it does pose an interesting question for strict constructionists.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree. But it does pose an interesting question for strict constructionists.

Does it? Is there any precedent on this? I think even strict constructionists are going to have to practice a little Constitutional Divinity in order to sort this one out.

In the end, I can't see five justices saluting the idea that a person is not "natural born" for the purposes of this Article if they are born on a military installation located on foreign soil.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

That's what I always thought, but that's not what the State Department seems to be saying.

I think the document does say that such a child is a citizen, but that the citizenship route was established by practices and laws other than those actually listed in the Constitution.

ETA: There's no question about citizenship, just a question about "natural-born," in McCain's case, right? It's because we not only have to worry about whether he's a citizen, but whether he's a "natural-born" citizen in the Constitutional sense. It could affect Nittyalum's friend too, but only if she runs for President, right?

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't know that's necessarily the case. (It should be, but whether it would be, I don't know.) It seems that the question might turn on whether the child in born on land under US sovereignty. At least according to the Wiki article cited (usual disclaimers, I know), "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

The way it looks to me, though, is I only know of two kinds of citizens -- natural born and naturalized. Working from the assumption that he is a citizen, if he's not naturalized, then doesn't he have to be natural born?

I'm glad I don't do immigration law.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that Military Instalations, Consular, and Embassies are not considered part of the United States? I do beleive they are considered American soil therefore Americans.

In other words, anyone born outside of the Continental or States such as Alaska and Hawaii would be in doubt even though they are born of US citizens are in doubt?


What a smack in the face for a man who while serving his country became a prisoner of war in Nam.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Let me get this straight, you are saying that Military Instalations, Consular, and Embassies are not considered part of the United States? I do beleive they are considered American soil therefore Americans.

I'm not saying anything specifically, just passing along what the State Department seems to be saying.

But the State Department does seem to be saying that births on military installations are not considered to be "on US soil." Embassies, it seems, they consider differently, because of international law regarding the status of embassies and those connected with them.

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

I'll be sure to alert my friend who was born to two American parents while her father was stationed in GTMO on the U.S. Naval Air Base. Are you saying she wouldn't be considered a native-born US citizen?

I have no idea. I'm just looking at what that State Department policy seems to be seeing, but I certainly won't claim to understand it completely. Ultimately, I think it would be a question for a court, not the State Department anyway.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm glad I don't do immigration law.

Immigration law is a nightmare! I'm in our immigration clinic right now and we have a flowchart that's about 4 ft tall in tiny font that we use to determine citizenship - it's so insane.

[nittanyalum]

I'll be sure to alert my friend who was born to two American parents while her father was stationed in GTMO on the U.S. Naval Air Base. Are you saying she wouldn't be considered a native-born US citizen?

[33girl]

You know what this means.

SHILOH JOLIE-PITT IS NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND CAN NEVER BE OUR PRESIDENT.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by 33girl

You know what this means.

SHILOH JOLIE-PITT IS NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND CAN NEVER BE OUR PRESIDENT.

Tears will be wept.

[Kevin]

There were several "fair, valid recount[s]." According to any reasonable standard, George Bush still won. No one was disenfranchised. Gore did try to disenfranchise the majority of Floridians who voted for Bush, but as you well know, he was ultimately unsuccessful.

I'm not sure what the problem is with the electoral college. It seems to work out pretty well in my estimation. The electoral college is just about the only way for small states like mine to be relevant. Otherwise, you'd see presidential campaigns almost exclusively fought in the top 10 cities rather than in each of the 50 states.

As far as deciding something before election day, the Supreme Court is not in the business of issuing advisory opinions. You have to have an Article III Case or Controversy. The issue is not yet ripe for decision. Only if McCain wins the general election does this ever become an issue.

If it becomes an issue, I stand by my proposition that there's no way in heck you'll get 5 of the current justices to give the passage such a construction that it'd do away with the McCain presidency.

[skylark]

My own opinion is Congress should amend the constitution NOW in order to alleviate the ambiguity. I think it is even in the Democratic Party's interest to fix the issue than leave it up in the air.

[skylark]

Hey jon, I was looking up your profile to get to your earlier posts (to check to see if you'd said you were an attorney... question answered) and I noticed something completely off topic and random but you might not be aware of. Did you know you joined on 6-6-06?

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by skylark

Hey Jon, I was looking up your profile to get to your earlier posts (to check to see if you'd said you were an attorney... question answered) and I noticed something completely off topic and random but you might not be aware of. Did you know you joined on 6-6-06?

On all accounts.
While I am not an attorney, I have spent time in a Holiday Inn Express.
My dad did, however, argue a case before the U.S. Supreme Court once.
He was a type A personality as well as a class A litigator.
As well as a card carrying Republican.

[nittanyalum]

If anyone's still interested, a bipartisan team of lawyers have come to a conclusion on McCain: Lawyers: McCain Birth Doesn't Disqualify Him

[Leslie Anne]

Thanks for the update and the link, nittany. I hope this puts the issue to rest. While I'm not a supporter of McCain, I thought it was ludicrous for anyone to carry on about his qualifications, or lack thereof, as far as being American born.