White men in NPHC

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Which is a HUGE critique that feminist scholars and race scholars have been making for years.

Folks are correct in that "African American psychology" isn't inherently different than everyone else's. But what your class was about was probably more "social psychology" which delves into how our surroundings influence us cognitively, cultural expectations, and meanings. And how the cognitive, expectations, and meanings impacts our surroundings.

Yes well some of us are new to the field

Yep, basically. And, in one of my more recent graduate classes, we discussed multicultural counseling relationships and determined every relationship will be multicultural because you're almost never going to sit down with someone who has the same values and beliefs and upbringing, etc. as you. I'm taking a whole class on it in the fall and am very interested.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

You make sense based on your interpretation of these posts. Not based on what the posts are really saying.

People are judged everyday from the face value of being white, black, handicapped, female, ugly, pretty, short, tall, skinny, fat......

If you want to get beyond the surface, you ask questions and interact with people. It happens to black applicants and black members, as well. Some of us are just more curious when it comes to nonblack applicants and members. But based on your logic, whites shouldn't get any type of questions or curiosity. They should be taken at face value as long as they have the surface qualifications, which is a privilege not even awarded to blacks in our organizations.

I don't really think I'm saying that. I'm really saying that the applicants should be treated like individuals and that if a applicant is white, that person is not dismissed out of hand because of their skin color (or because of assumptions made about them due to their skin color). And it sounds to me like the vast majority of members do this. I was only responding to the few who do not. Yes, I acknowledge they're going to get more and different questions if they're non-black and I think they should. But I also think they should be able to prove their dedication. Someone against white membership will never be satisfied with a white applicant even if that person is more dedicated than the "average" black applicant.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Reds6

I'm not disputing that Non-Jews join Historically founded Frats and Sororities, but I'm sure when they do it's questioned why.

But we can continue to go back and forth and my position won't change. Although my orgnaization does except white members, my question will still remain why does a white person want to join a historically black Sorority? I wouldn't vote no for a white person soley based on their skin color but on my doubt of the level of committment they have to my community.

To be honest I think the same way. I was always really curious when I saw a black guy or girl rush NIC or NPC when the entire D9 plus several locals were on campus. In the end I found out that people would just go where they felt they belonged.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Drolefille:

So, when a non-African American member displays or vocalizes interest to us, there is that entire history that some of us read while our membership intake processes about the NPHC and its reasons for organizing. That is why we question intent. That is why some refuse to vote in favor of certain potential members.

I'm all for intent being questioned, but if a person can never satisfy you based on their skin color... I disagree with that.

And really, it may be foul and offensive, but so what if someone choses not to vote for a non-African American member in a privately held organization? In the United States, we have the freedom to associate with whom we choose just like everyone else.

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

And even if you twisted it around and asked if an NPC organization chose not to select a Black girl simply because she was dark skinned, yes, there are groups that would cry "foul" and be upset by that if it ever got out.[

Would members of the D9 be upset that a little Black girl did not get admitted into a NPC organization because she was voted down based on her race? Personally, IMO, I would not be terribly upset by that, saddened, yes. But read to march on Washington. No, not me.

It's happened before when stories hit the news about people being dropped based on race. It gets coverage. People get upset. It's wrong whenever an otherwise wonderful candidate is dropped due to ignorance.

And I'm not marching on Washington either.

Let's just say we pick our civil rights battles carefully... I think my Sorors Rosa Parks and Corretta Scott King would have plenty to say if they were alive today...

And I've never compared this to a civil rights battle. It's not anything more than a discussion.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

To be honest I think the same way. I was always really curious when I saw a black guy or girl rush NIC or NPC when the entire D9 plus several locals were on campus. In the end I found out that people would just go where they felt they belonged.

Interesting as this has not been my experience. However the NPHC groups were city wide chapters and didn't meet on our campus and just weren't very visible there. Campus culture difference I guess.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

you realize you're comparing personal prejudices to organizational protocol? who are you to tell someone what they should do regarding membership into THEIR organization?

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm all for intent being questioned, but if a person can never satisfy you based on their skin color... I disagree with that.

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization. I'm not saying recruit guys into a sorority, but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

You do realize we are talking about a Sorority membership? I'm not saying I would hire a black person over a white person. I'm not saying I would stop a white person from living in my neighborhood. I'm saying I don't understand why a white person would want to be part of a HBGLO. We promote issues that affect and uplift the black woman and our community amongst other issues. I can't turn to a White Soror and speak about my experience as a black woman and expect her to understand because she's been there not just empathize. I don't care about a person's skin color. But I do know I can't separate my skin color from my ethnic or culture experience or identity. I grew up in a predominately white neighborhood, so my choice to attend an HBCU and join a BGLO was like going home to me, you wouldn't understand that if yo haven't lived it. You can't understand my struggle or that of my people if you haven't lived it. I don't care about what color a person is, but because I know the history of many BGLO's and our purpose of founding, I prefer to share that experience with my sister's of color.

[Laak 315]

Originally Posted by Reds6

You do realize we are talking about a Sorority membership? I'm not saying I would hire a black person over a white person. I'm not saying I would stop a white person from living in my neighborhood. I'm saying I don't understand why a white person would want to be part of a HBGLO. We promote issues that affect and uplift the black woman and our community amongst other issues. I can't turn to a White Soror and speak about my experience as a black woman and expect her to understand because she's been there not just empathize. I don't care about a person's skin color. But I do know I can't separate my skin color from my ethnic or culture experience or identity. I grew up in a predominately white neighborhood, so my choice to attend an HBCU and join a BGLO was like going home to me, you wouldn't understand that if yo haven't lived it. You can't understand my struggle or that of my people if you haven't lived it. I don't care about what color a person is, but because I know the history of many BGLO's and our purpose of founding, I prefer to share that experience with my sister's of color.

So because a white person doesn't necessarily understand what you have been through (i.e. struggle), you are willing to hold that against them and not allow them to be a member of your organization that they obviously wish to be a part of? You say you don't understand why a white person would want to be part of a primarily black organization. There is one black person in my fraternity that is active right now and I can honestly say that none of my brothers has questioned him as to why he joined TKE. We are glad to have him because of what he offers and because he is an all-around great guy. Are you saying that a white person can't be for a cause that black people are for? That seems ludicrous to me. I know plenty of sororities on my campus that are predominantly white, yet have members of other races as sisters. It works out fine. Yet, if one of these "white" sororities denied membership to a woman of another race just because of her race, I guarantee you there would be so many lawsuits that your head would spin. Why is there such a double-standard for an organization that consists primarily of people of a race other than white? You can deny membership to your organization and it seems fine. If a sorority on my campus did that, they'd be sued/suspended/kicked off, etc...I'm just not understanding why there is a double-standard...

[BlueNYC2]

smh...why ya'll still goin back and forth about this shit???

to the NPC members, just remember, that the few NPHC members on here dont make up even a .00001% of our respective orgs, except for the Iotas on here(just kiddin...i had to get that out of my system)...so they are not the reflection of the org or chapter as a whole.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by Laak 315

Are you saying that a white person can't be for a cause that black people are for? That seems ludicrous to me. I know plenty of sororities on my campus that are predominantly white, yet have members of other races as sisters. It works out fine. Yet, if one of these "white" sororities denied membership to a woman of another race just because of her race, I guarantee you there would be so many lawsuits that your head would spin. Why is there such a double-standard for an organization that consists primarily of people of a race other than white? You can deny membership to your organization and it seems fine. If a sorority on my campus did that, they'd be sued/suspended/kicked off, etc...I'm just not understanding why there is a double-standard...

It is pointless to ask these type of questions or to really even try to discuss it.......especially on greekchat.

White people can't join HBGLOs because we don't "understand" what they are trying to promote and the purposes, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

.....but then when fraternities, especially in the South, have all white members it's because we are all racists, bigots, KKK lovers. God forbid we pledge who we want to.

[Reds6]

Originally Posted by Laak 315

So because a white person doesn't necessarily understand what you have been through (i.e. struggle), you are willing to hold that against them and not allow them to be a member of your organization that they obviously wish to be a part of? You say you don't understand why a white person would want to be part of a primarily black organization. There is one black person in my fraternity that is active right now and I can honestly say that none of my brothers has questioned him as to why he joined TKE. We are glad to have him because of what he offers and because he is an all-around great guy. Are you saying that a white person can't be for a cause that black people are for? That seems ludicrous to me. I know plenty of sororities on my campus that are predominantly white, yet have members of other races as sisters. It works out fine. Yet, if one of these "white" sororities denied membership to a woman of another race just because of her race, I guarantee you there would be so many lawsuits that your head would spin. Why is there such a double-standard for an organization that consists primarily of people of a race other than white? You can deny membership to your organization and it seems fine. If a sorority on my campus did that, they'd be sued/suspended/kicked off, etc...I'm just not understanding why there is a double-standard...

Yep all of that! And if a NPC turned down a person of color, honestly it wouldn't bother me, because you should be able to choose who you wnat in your private organization.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm all for intent being questioned, but if a person can never satisfy you based on their skin color... I disagree with that.

Legally, sure. Ethically? Morally? I don't agree with it. Particularly when it goes against the values of the organization...but when your organization says it welcomes women of all races and creeds (as mine does) you should follow that.

Intelligent thinking and honest people would not based any decisions on skin color. Especially if an interest shows characteristics that the D9 seeks.

Aren't you admonishing us for making our own organization's choices?

Do you really think that most non-African Americans stroll up to our "areas" and say they are interested?

Couldn't it be that folks of a different ethnic group automatically are interacting or hanging out with African Americans and feel much more comfortable in this setting and decide to pursue a membership?

Since NIC/NPC membership drives are inherently different and we do not actively recruit members, and our membership intake extends joining invitations to college graduates, then by default, one who wants to pursue membership would have to take a completely different course of action than what is done in traditional greek organization.

So, when you say to us "tsk tsk on you D9, you have irresponsible individual members", how do you think that belittling makes us feel?

[Laak 315]

I'm entitled to my belief that it is easier for a greek organization consisting of race(s) other than caucasian to get away with not allowing caucasians in their fraternity/sorority than it is for a predominantly caucasian fraternity/sorority to not allow people of other race(s) into their organization, in regards to legality. Considering the fact that on my college campus, certain members of a sorority consisting of a race other than caucasian have blatantly said that caucasian girls are not allowed (at public events). A fraternity on my campus consisting of a race other than caucasian has said there would be "very small chance" that a caucasian male would be allowed to join. I know not a single person in my fraternity nor my friends in other fraternities/sororities that have said this about people of other races other than caucasian. That does not mean that the people in the organizations that I don't know haven't said these things, but I haven't heard them, so therefore this is what forms my opinion/belief. You getting very defensive at my opinions/beliefs is not helping sway my opinion that this is the way it is at many college campuses in the U.S.

[Laak 315]

Also, no clarification has been given as to why certain fraternities/sororities feel this way about caucasians joining other than the idea that we don't understand your "struggle". If you could further clarify this, that would be great.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Laak 315

I'm entitled to my belief that it is easier for a greek organization consisting of race(s) other than caucasian to get away with not allowing caucasians in their fraternity/sorority than it is for a predominantly caucasian fraternity/sorority to not allow people of other race(s) into their organization, in regards to legality. Considering the fact that on my college campus, certain members of a sorority consisting of a race other than caucasian have blatantly said that caucasian girls are not allowed (at public events). A fraternity on my campus consisting of a race other than caucasian has said there would be "very small chance" that a caucasian male would be allowed to join. I know not a single person in my fraternity nor my friends in other fraternities/sororities that have said this about people of other races other than caucasian. That does not mean that the people in the organizations that I don't know haven't said these things, but I haven't heard them, so therefore this is what forms my opinion/belief. You getting very defensive at my opinions/beliefs is not helping sway my opinion that this is the way it is at many college campuses in the U.S.

First to whom are you refering to?

Second, your purview of what you think is happening on your campus is not the world's view. So basically, we have yet to care what you think or your opinions.

And just because you say it does not make it so. Are you trying to us Black folks "tsk, tsk about our organizations we were forced to form because we were not allowed to join 100 years ago"? Or to put it bluntly, are you saying Black people who are United States citizens do not have the freedom to associate with whomever they wish?

I could care less what NIC or NPC organizations do for I am concerned about my own Sorority. But to invalidate my Sorority on the eve of my Centennial--well that is foul of you.

As such, you need to PM me and we can deal with your issues offline, no sense in making personal attacks that are not germaine to this discussion.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Intelligent thinking and honest people would not based any decisions on skin color. Especially if an interest shows characteristics that the D9 seeks.

Aren't you admonishing us for making our own organization's choices?

Um, no. I'm not admonishing anyone. Disagreeing? Yes. Commenting? Yes. Acting like I choose who joins your org? No. The organizations welcome membership from all races. I personally have a problem with people who don't.

Do you really think that most non-African Americans stroll up to our "areas" and say they are interested?

Couldn't it be that folks of a different ethnic group automatically are interacting or hanging out with African Americans and feel much more comfortable in this setting and decide to pursue a membership?

No, and yeah, I totally understand that. Thus my assumption that the average white interest would be just as dedicated as a black one.

Since NIC/NPC membership drives are inherently different and we do not actively recruit members, and our membership intake extends joining invitations to college graduates, then by default, one who wants to pursue membership would have to take a completely different course of action than what is done in traditional greek organization.

Yes, I understand that and nothing I've said contradicts that.

So, when you say to us "tsk tsk on you D9, you have irresponsible individual members", how do you think that belittling makes us feel?

Except I'm not. I'm saying tsk tsk individual members, that's biased and disappointing in today's society particularly when it goes against the values of your organization. If you're not one of those members, you're not getting "tsked." (And frankly, I'm not really "tsk"ing either.) I commented on a post, I'm not taking on the system. My opinion only matters as much as you want it to as I'm not a member of the D9 and thus can only speak as a fellow Greek.

Hell, I've rather enjoyed this discussion except for the part where I have to keep explaining that I'm aware it's only "one" vote and that the D9 as a whole is open to non-black members. Also, yes, we recruit members differently. Yes the D9 has a specific background. And yes, it is a private organization that can choose its members how it likes. There, I really hope I don't have to type any of those again, because I feel like a Myspace page that someone keeps refreshing. ("Broken Record" is so old fashioned.)

My POV: It's a shame that, despite the organization's guidelines, despite the worthiness of an individual candidate, some people will not vote for a white person because of the color of their skin, and/or the pre-assumption of the person's values and dedication based on the color of their skin.

And, as someone else mentioned, even if Member X is only one vote, a chapter full of members with the same rule means that the majority will keep out white members out of hand.

[KAPital PHINUst]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Um, no. I'm not admonishing anyone. Disagreeing? Yes. Commenting? Yes. Acting like I choose who joins your org? No. The organizations welcome membership from all races. I personally have a problem with people who don't.


No, and yeah, I totally understand that. Thus my assumption that the average white interest would be just as dedicated as a black one.



Yes, I understand that and nothing I've said contradicts that.


Except I'm not. I'm saying tsk tsk individual members, that's biased and disappointing in today's society particularly when it goes against the values of your organization. If you're not one of those members, you're not getting "tsked." (And frankly, I'm not really "tsk"ing either.) I commented on a post, I'm not taking on the system. My opinion only matters as much as you want it to as I'm not a member of the D9 and thus can only speak as a fellow Greek.

Hell, I've rather enjoyed this discussion except for the part where I have to keep explaining that I'm aware it's only "one" vote and that the D9 as a whole is open to non-black members. Also, yes, we recruit members differently. Yes the D9 has a specific background. And yes, it is a private organization that can choose its members how it likes. There, I really hope I don't have to type any of those again, because I feel like a Myspace page that someone keeps refreshing. ("Broken Record" is so old fashioned.)

My POV: It's a shame that, despite the organization's guidelines, despite the worthiness of an individual candidate, some people will not vote for a white person because of the color of their skin, and/or the pre-assumption of the person's values and dedication based on the color of their skin.

And, as someone else mentioned, even if Member X is only one vote, a chapter full of members with the same rule means that the majority will keep out white members out of hand.

Drolefille, while you are absolutely right on all counts, and that such a mentality IMHO is still misguided, in the grand scheme of things, one can only hope that the voting majority does not share such viewpoints as you have indicated could happen.