Hazing creates a sense of unity

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by macallan25
do you really think that chapters operate by what their national website has posted in regards to fraternitie's operations? Phi Delt is a nationally dry fraternity, expressed on their website....do you think that stops them from partying in their house?

Nope. And when they get caught, they lose their charters.

[macallan25]

Sorry, but I disagree. I know tons of chapters of Phi Delt that have been caught and none of them have "lost their charters."

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Sorry, but I disagree. I know tons of chapters of Phi Delt that have been caught and none of them have "lost their charters."

Brother Tex,
I personally know of one that did....

[Kevin]

Originally posted by James
Maybe we should divide the topic up into hazing for men and hazing for women.

Despite years of political rhetoric the sexes are not the same and we don't look at the world the same.

However, the default viewpoint is being more and more skewed towards a feminine perspective.

What women think is hazing, men may very well think is just normal comraderie.

PErsonally I think its hazing to force active members to buy craft boxes and make all kinds of little gifts for sisters. Its like they are elves or something.

At first blush, this seems like a decent idea. Considering it a little further leads me to think that all we're disagreeing on is what constitutes hazing. I think that virtually all of us agree that our respective HQ's rules go too far. Most of us are willing to admit that the HQs go too far because collegians will exploit the hell out of any kind of loophole HQ leaves for them.

The discussion has considered whether the sole motivation for the existance of these RM policies and prohibitions against hazing is essentially a CYA move by our respective organizations in terms of limiting their liability. Some of our organizations were founded 'against hazing' (and in a sense, mine was), but some of the things in our RM policy such as the prohibition on scavenger hunts seem questionable. It could simply be that our insurance company wrote the rules based on the types of insured losses they had protected the organization from in the past. Many disagree with the notion that our hazing rules are financially motivated, but I'll respectfully have to simply agree to disagree there.

That isn't to say that they shouldn't be followed. Knowing the reason behind the rule isn't really important. When we gave our oath to our respective organizations, most of us (it seems safe to assume here) gave an oath to abide by the rules of our national governing body. If our national governing body says that we can't send kids out on a scavenger hunt, then we are oath-bound to not do that. In that sense, we are honor-bound to do as HQ requires (except in extreme circumstances) whether we agree with the motivation behind their reasoning or not.

I agree with your notion that men and women both have different social norms within their respective GLO's. I don't think that's even at issue.

Unless you're arguing that bows and toes or the elephant walk are just normal male comraderie, then I'm not sure where you're coming from.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by macallan25
Sorry, but I disagree. I know tons of chapters of Phi Delt that have been caught and none of them have "lost their charters."

I think you're going to have to prove that one to us.

Or, define getting caught.

This forum is full of instances of lost charters for things like alcohol violations, hazing and otherwise breaking their nationals or university rules.

[macallan25]

I have friends that are Phis at many different campuses. Most all of them have had alcohol violations of some nature........and they didn't get their charter removed. Maybe probation or some restricitions, but not a dismissal from their campus.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I think you're going to have to prove that one to us.

Or, define getting caught.

This forum is full of instances of lost charters for things like alcohol violations, hazing and otherwise breaking their nationals or university rules.

I vouch that a dry fraternity has not closed down a chapter for alcohol violations (an open party as well as private cocktails with sororities) even though they very well knew about it and caught them. They slapped them on the hand and called it a day.

-Rudey
--Unless it becomes a huge PR blunder I'd be willing to bet that's how most "Dry" fraternities really work.

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by macallan25
I have friends that are Phis at many different campuses. Most all of them have had alcohol violations of some nature........and they didn't get their charter removed. Maybe probation or some restricitions, but not a dismissal from their campus.

While what You say may be true, there is always the exception to the rule isnt there? The stepping over the line as it were.

While all GLOs profess "Dry", they also know that We are Social Organizations and with R M must be much more careful in regard to this. That is why Regulations are set in Place by Nationals.

Not All Chapters are Decharterd for Drinking, it usually is a bigger problem isnt it!



macallan25

Your posts are not falling on deaf ears, just many of us who have been around for a while and have seen the results of Out Of Hand and Control Stupidity!

[macallan25]

I was unaware that ALL glo's profess to being dry...mine doesn't.

[Tom Earp]

Hm, interesting!

Wonder if You are really in a GLO!

You do not seem to have a clue about a darn thing!

You didnt even know what GLO ment on another Thread!

[Kevin]

Originally posted by macallan25
I was unaware that ALL glo's profess to being dry...mine doesn't.

Mine has an alcohol policy, but is not dry. The dry housing initiative was voted down at a recent past Grand Chapter and hasn't been brought back up.

[macallan25]

Hey old guy....that wasn't me that asked what a GLO was.....I remember reading that though. And no, not ALL glo's profess to being dry....I have no idea where you got that from. Yes, as ktsnake said, we have an alcohol policy...which are prevalent among glo's, of course, but not necessarily followed. Why would we profess dryness, why would our nationals profess dryness when we have chapters on campuses, such as mine, with wet fraternity houses. Maybe you can enlighten me on that?

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Hm, interesting!

Wonder if You are really in a GLO!

You do not seem to have a clue about a darn thing!

You didnt even know what GLO ment on another Thread!

[AGDee]

It comes down to this. If you really love your GLO and want it to continue to exist, then you won't put in jeopardy of financial disaster by engaging in high risk activities.

[macallan25]

Yes, I understand this....I was just making a point that not all glo's profess to being dry....as stated by Tom Earp.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by AGDee
It comes down to this. If you really love your GLO and want it to continue to exist, then you won't put in jeopardy of financial disaster by engaging in high risk activities.

That's really not something anyone really disagrees with. I think what we're actually discussing here is that many activities which are in no way "high risk" are forbidden because if taken to the nth degree, they could be high risk. It seems the insurance companies/HQs have decided that individual chapters should not have at their discretion the decision as to how much is too much, or at the very least, HQ will lay out certain rules and enforce them as situations are brought to their attention so that they can at least claim plausible deniability.

Essentially you're right, but there are a lot of ambiguities in your statement.