Hazing creates a sense of unity

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Heather17
These are not "my" standards--its the law. I didn't make the laws up. And it is only a few people who do not want to follow the law, and who I would argue are putting their chapters in jeopardy for a variety of reasons (not just legal), that are put off (repeatedly). I do not believe I have talked down to anyone--rather, I have been trying to encourage people to look at the facts. I have not called anyone names nor have I tried to skew what they have said (unlike some.) I can only project if people let me.

Why are you so offended by my presentation of facts? If you disagree with the facts then attack them--there is no need to continuously attack me.

No I am not an Alpha Phi--I am a DPhiE.

At what point did I attack you? You know what's funny? By insinuating that I did so you are painting quite the ugly picture. I'd call that an "Attack" but really there isn't any need to get all emotional sweetums.

Anyway, 1) there are a ton of laws on the books that aren't enforced. I named jaywalking as one but there are sodomy laws and quite a few ridiculous things that you can find if you wanted to google. 2) not all laws are to be followed (see slavery). 3) the law is to be interpreted given that most things are gray in life and not black/white.

-Rudey

[LPIDelta]

Originally posted by Rudey
At what point did I attack you? You know what's funny? By insinuating that I did so you are painting quite the ugly picture. I'd call that an "Attack" but really there isn't any need to get all emotional sweetums.

Anyway, 1) there are a ton of laws on the books that aren't enforced. I named jaywalking as one but there are sodomy laws and quite a few ridiculous things that you can find if you wanted to google. 2) not all laws are to be followed (see slavery). 3) the law is to be interpreted given that most things are gray in life and not black/white.

-Rudey

Not emotional at all--but anytime you tell someone they have a chip on their shoulder, they might consider that personal.

Agreed--not all laws are enforced.

And not all illegal actions can lead to liability and lawsuits, which our organizations cannot afford to continuously defend ourselves against.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Heather17
Not emotional at all--but anytime you tell someone they have a chip on their shoulder, they might consider that personal.

Agreed--not all laws are enforced.

And not all illegal actions can lead to liability and lawsuits, which our organizations cannot afford to continuously defend ourselves against.

Have you ever noticed that this forum and this whole area of discussion is called Risk Management? It's not called Risk Elimination and Prevention.

We are exposed to liabilities and risk on a daily basis. In fact, it's a given that it will happen at some point (hence the liability). Given our exposure, we just try and manage it because that's all we can do. So those standards that you think need to be held above all else, are often ignored even by a national office.

I can name off several chapters of several dry fraternities where I know without a shadow of a doubt that their national office knows those chapters are not dry and those chapters are still open.

Risk is managed, molded, and evolved over time.

-Rudey

[LPIDelta]

Originally posted by Rudey
I can name off several chapters of several dry fraternities where I know without a shadow of a doubt that their national office knows those chapters are not dry and those chapters are still open.

I think the differece between this and hazing, however, is that hazing is deemed illegal in 44 states...and there are no laws governing the choice of whether an organization is dry or not , although certainly there are rules about serving and drinking underage.

As I said before, not all national orgs enforce their policies, and I don't agree with that. If you're going to have a policy, then enforce it; otherwise, consider not adopting or rescinding that policy.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Heather17
I think the differece between this and hazing, however, is that hazing is deemed illegal in 44 states...and there are no laws governing the choice of whether an organization is dry or not , although certainly there are rules about serving and drinking underage.

As I said before, not all national orgs enforce their policies, and I don't agree with that. If you're going to have a policy, then enforce it; otherwise, consider not adopting or rescinding that policy.

Nobody enforces everything.

And drinking is just one case (coincidentally, if you assume one enters college at 18 and graduates at 22, unless their parties are for seniors only - which they're not - they are violating the underage laws by 75%). I also know of several chapters where the advisors and consultants know about hazing. It's just the way it is. Scav hunts may be considered hazing, but often people look the other way.

Even payments of dues often come in after deadline.

The list can go on and on.

-Rudey

[LPIDelta]

Originally posted by Rudey
And drinking is just one case (coincidentally, if you assume one enters college at 18 and graduates at 22, unless their parties are for seniors only - which they're not - they are violating the underage laws by 75%). I also know of several chapters where the advisors and consultants know about hazing. It's just the way it is. Scav hunts may be considered hazing, but often people look the other way.

Even payments of dues often come in after deadline.

The list can go on and on.

So are you saying this is ok?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Heather17
So are you saying this is ok?

I am saying it's not black and white. It's not right or wrong.

You can say good or bad but those are personal/moral judgements on your part, and nothing more or factual.

-Rudey

[LPIDelta]

See I disagree--if its against the law, then it is pretty black and white. Just because someone chooses not to act on it or enforce it, doesn't change that.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Heather17
See I disagree--if its against the law, then it is pretty black and white. Just because someone chooses not to act on it or enforce it, doesn't change that.

The law is interpreted.

-Rudey

[stormy]

There were 11 girls total in my pledge class. I go to a rather small school so a few of the girls knew each other already, but since I was a year older then most of them I went into the sorority knowing nobody. That was scary in itself. The hazing aspect of joining DID bring us together. During especially bad nights we would all gather afterwards before starting our projects and talk or listen to each other. Since we were all hazed equally no "cliques" formed in our group and there was no resentment towards the sisters. The night we got in was amazing. Such a huge rift was relieved and it was so amazing seeing the older sisters' attitutes change so quickly. There was not a dry eye in the entire house.

[Tom Earp]

I guess, in Your mind and ours is what is hazing?

It may in Your mind have brought You and Your Sisters together, but a lot depends on what type of hazing.

[tunatartare]

Just need to make one comment here. While hazing may create a bond between pledge brothers/sisters, it can distance the chapter from the national organization as a whole. Last year, a good friend of mine pledged a national organization on his campus (NIC). This fraternity had the reputation for hazing the most out of a campus on which hazing generally was pretty prevalent. He became best friends with all of his pledge brothers and after he got in, he became a diehard brother of the fraternity. Something shady happened with his chapter. He has been in for about a year now, however, neither he, nor any of his pledge brothers have been initiated. I asked him to see his fraternity pin and he said he never got one. Since he pledged, he has had a little brother, yet he was never initiated. I didn't wanna make a big deal out of this with him, but it seemed like either his chapter thought that they were above the national fraternity as a whole, or they just couldn't get their act together.

[bows&toes]

That's unfortunate, but what does that have to do with hazing? Personally, that's partially your friends fault for pledging a fraternity that most likely didnt even have its charter. Distance ourselves from Nationals??? Oh, God NO!! Nationals may as well be some sleazy insurance company, seems like all they do is take our money and provide insurance.

[bows&toes]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
I guess, in Your mind and ours is what is hazing?

It may in Your mind have brought You and Your Sisters together, but a lot depends on what type of hazing.

I'm willing to bet it wasn't the drink 'till you puke kind. I also bet it wasn't the type that physically beat them, etc. That type of hazing pretty much screws the rest of us that "haze" responsibly.

I bet it was the type that put them in a difficult situation, and they probably had to overcome it by working together.
(sarcasm)Maybe they even broke a sweat, or actually got their hands dirty(sarcasm)

Some greek organizations still make you EARN your letters. Those are the type that have members that are proud to wear their letters because they had to work their ass off to get them.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by bows&toes
Some greek organizations still make you EARN your letters. Those are the type that have members that are proud to wear their letters because they had to work their ass off to get them.

There are a lot of ways to "earn" your letters without being hazed.

It's not necessary to participate in illegal activities to be proud of what you are.