Hazing creates a sense of unity

[LPIDelta]

Originally posted by ktsnake
We made it through those days, yet anti-hazing policies didn't start really popping up until sometime in the 80's (maybe late 70's).

Anti-hazing laws didn't come about until much later (someone correct me if I'm factually mistaken).

(ETA: I'm in NO WAY promoting hazing, I'm simply trying to spark a decent discussion).

Pretty sure you're wrong here since a quick google search showed that Illinois has had anti-hazing laws since 1901. I'm sure other states had laws before the 70's and 80's.

Now--maybe we are more aware of the laws because of risk management training or because of liability. Maybe there is more enforcement. I find that sad, because we should be just as concerned with treating each other like we would want to be treated.

I am sure there will be lots of "decent" discussion tomorrow when people return from the weekend, and this thread will get lots of reponse from people who are going to try to justify hazing.

[PiKA2001]

I think it depends on the type of hazing that is taking place. Having pledges drink or eat excessively or throwing food at pledges is flat out dumb. Any type of hazing that can injure someone should not be tolerated. I will say that when I went through basic military training I went through what you guys would consider heavy "hazing". Did it bring us closer as a group? Yes it did. Did it teach us to stick together and help each other? Of course. I hated every minute of it while I was going through but now when I talk to guys that were with me we laugh about the shit we had to do. I truely feel a comraderie with those guys that I feel will last a lifetime. Others might disagree, but this is how I feel.

[Boodleboy322]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I will say that when I went through basic military training I went through what you guys would consider heavy "hazing". Did it bring us closer as a group? Yes it did. Did it teach us to stick together and help each other? Of course. I hated every minute of it while I was going through but now when I talk to guys that were with me we laugh about the shit we had to do. I truely feel a comraderie with those guys that I feel will last a lifetime. Others might disagree, but this is how I feel.

PiKA2001,

There is much truth in your statement. The Fraternal Hazing boom began after World War II when an abundance of veterans were returning back from the war and began utilizing their Montgomery GI Bill. Universities in America prospered as a substantial rise in enrollment was given by the soldiers, sailors, and airmen that helped trigger this boom. They began joining Greek letter organizations. These fellow shipmates, battle buddies, and zoomies began integrating the same type of camaraderie and character development that they were accustomed to in the war. The boom reached a summit around the 60s and 70s. In the 80s and 90s it slowly began to die away. Prior to World War II most GLO rites of passage and indoctrination principles consisted mainly of religious type activities, simple reading, signing or pledge of allegiance ceremonies.

I am a decorated veteran and I am not saying that I condone hazing. On the other hand I am also not denying the value of the lessons, principles, ideals and character development that I learned from my military experience.

Fraternal Regards,

Boodleboy322

[shinerbock]

When people say they think hazing creates unity, there not talking about getting the crap beat out of them, or doing disgusting things probably. However, many forms of hazing do build unity, and most people I know were glad they went through it. For example, hell weeks, scavenger hunts, a great deal of work to do in limited time, etc. All these things cause the pledge class to work together in order to achieve a common goal. I don't resent the brothers who made us do it, it created a sense of unity, knowing that we were able to work together to overcome an obstacle.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by PiKA2001
I will say that when I went through basic military training I went through what you guys would consider heavy "hazing". Did it bring us closer as a group? Yes it did. Did it teach us to stick together and help each other? Of course.

Are many people killed during basic training?

[Boodleboy322]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Are many people killed during basic training?

The number of documented deaths related to standard Basic Training and Officer Candidate School are not significant. The number of deaths from soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have provided service before thy self, defended freedom and democracy, and protected the rights of liberty around the world is far too many.

Regards,

Boodleboy322

[Niats 174]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Are many people killed during basic training?

actually it is quite possible. the whole point of basic training, and pledging for that matter, is to push you to your absolute boundaries....and then some.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Niats 174

actually it is quite possible. the whole point of basic training, and pledging for that matter, is to push you to your absolute boundaries....and then some.

So, after you're done pledging, do they ship you off to Iraq?

[Niats 174]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

So, after you're done pledging, do they ship you off to Iraq?

yes, because everyone who goes through basic immediately gets shipped across the pond. /sarc

pledging taught me more in two months than years of high school etc. could ever teach me. i felt different in every way possible - that i was actually ready to start my adult life and (cliche i know) to be a man. i tried to bring the question back to my original point the best i could, troll.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Niats 174

troll.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Niats 174

actually it is quite possible. the whole point of basic training, and pledging for that matter, is to push you to your absolute boundaries....and then some.

The more I read of your posts, the more I get to thinking of Ft. Lewis and Fort Bragg.
Neither one, TTBOMK, has a GLO chapter on it.
To my POV, beliefs, experience, and opinion, GLO's have very little to nothing to do with Military training of any type or kind.

[grizzlyWG]

I agree with shinerbock in that hazing isnt bad provided it has a purpose. If it is there to weed out the kids that dont want to be there and to make the pledges work towards a common goal, then yes it is good. There are many people on here who when they think hazing, they think people getting beat near death and all sorts of ridiculous things. Hazing with a purpose is beneficial in my opinion.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
Are many people killed during basic training?

People do get killed during basic. But not that many.

I had to think about that a little.

Certainly the military is in the hazing business, but the hazers (DI's, etc) may be a little more mature than the average fraternity man (or sorority woman). They all have several years of military training themselves which probably creates some amount of that maturity. Additionally, while sometimes calling for "creativity" on the part of the DI, the military has the training down to a science and many years of "experience." The people doing the hazing are, for the most part, highly disciplined -- not the case in an organization of 18-22 year old college students away from home for the first time.

Changing gears, of course I was hazed during the pledge process. In those days, everyone was.

Over the years, I've been an advisor and division officer, and I can see absolutely no indication that physical hazing and mental distress somehow creates "closer" relationships or better pledge classes.

However, I do feel strongly that the definition of hazing needs to be honed. Some laws and rules are so broad as to be ridiculous -- but it is my opinion that the reason for these far ranging rules is that when allowed some level of hazing, some chapters and members don't know when to stop and things get terribly out of hand.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

People do get killed during basic. But not that many.

I had to think about that a little.

Certainly the military is in the hazing business, but the hazers (DI's, etc) may be a little more mature than the average fraternity man (or sorority woman). They all have several years of military training themselves which probably creates some amount of that maturity. Additionally, while sometimes calling for "creativity" on the part of the DI, the military has the training down to a science and many years of "experience." The people doing the hazing are, for the most part, highly disciplined -- not the case in an organization of 18-22 year old college students away from home for the first time.

Changing gears, of course I was hazed during the pledge process. In those days, everyone was.

Over the years, I've been an advisor and division officer, and I can see absolutely no indication that physical hazing and mental distress somehow creates "closer" relationships or better pledge classes.

However, I do feel strongly that the definition of hazing needs to be honed. Some laws and rules are so broad as to be ridiculous -- but it is my opinion that the reason for these far ranging rules is that when allowed some level of hazing, some chapters and members don't know when to stop and things get terribly out of hand.

Thank you so much for proving a point I made else where Delta

[jon1856]

Just found this site-has links to all states (6 do not have ) with anti-hazing laws. Can be a rather interesting read for some here.....
http://www.stophazing.org/laws.html

Along with this one:
http://www.hazing.cornell.edu/myths.html

Which ends with this:
Myth: Hazing must be okay if the military does it.
Reality: The U.S. military does not, in fact, condone hazing practices. The military does engage in a unique type of training for dangerous military operations. This training is conducted by professionals to prepare military personnel for putting their lives on the line for their country. According to the Dept. of the Army's TRADOC Regulation 350-6: "Hazing is strictly prohibited" and is "an offense punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.”