Hazing creates a sense of unity

[macallan25]

Was it really necessary to post Alabama's hazing by-laws. I'm sure ours at Texas says the same thing. Haven't read it in a while, probobly does.

Again, you have to consider what is being done.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by macallan25
....you can't just tell everyone that they are putting their chapter in jeopardy until you know what it is that is being done.

If you are breaking the rules of your organization, the mandates of your college/university, or local or state laws, it doesn't make any difference what is being done.

If you are doing something to void your insurance coverage, it doesn't make any difference what is being done.

Fair or not, that's the way it is.

[utealum]

Originally posted by macallan25
Was it really necessary to post Alabama's hazing by-laws. I'm sure ours at Texas says the same thing. Haven't read it in a while, probobly does.

Again, you have to consider what is being done.

I suppose in law school they will teach you that ignorance of the law is no excuse?

[shinerbock]

First, it isn't naive not to appreciate nationals. When we go to convention, our officers from the big southern chapters are the ones they ask to speak in all the sessions. So basically, we pay to teach everyone else what to do. Most national officers are people who weren't in good chapters, and therefore really have nothing to pull from in helping other chapters around the country. Secondly, nationals does treat different chapters differently. Our national org constantly looks the other way regarding things we do, and we generally ignore what they do. We don't follow the changes in terminology, or the PC'ing of our fraternity literature. We don't have a regional advisor, which I assume is due to the fact that they really just don't wanna know. It works for them, it works for us.

[Optimist Prime]

if you run your chapter or inter/national like a business you'll run it into the ground.

"we don't pledge anymore we have 45 associates or whatever this year"

next year "well...i'd rather have 35 assoicates than 50 pledges"

third year "has anybody seen the charter?"

[DeltAlum]

OK, here's the deal as I see it after being on both sides of the equation.

Nationals and insurance companies don't make a chapter good or bad. Size and geographic location doesn't make a chapter good or bad. The size of the school and whether it is public or private doesn't make a chapter good or bad.

The kind of men and women who are recruited make a chapter good or bad.

But, no matter how good those people are, they can't do it all on their own. Well, for the most part, anyway.

With a relatively small number of local exceptions, Nationals make a chapter stronger by giving it more resources than a local can afford. Those things include lower rates for liability insurance (which is necessary whether you like it or not), better deals on other supplies such as badges, forms, educational materials, etc.

How would you like a world where there were no rules or laws and anyone could run roughshod over your individual rights?

How would you like a world where you were forced to pay top dollar for your own insurance with no opportunity to negotiate lower group rates?

How much more would your badge cost if you had to buy it from a jewler in lots of ten or twenty instead of hundreds?

Would you like to have to provide your own legal representation if a member or chapter gets in trouble?

Do you suppose your advisors and other volunteers would work with you if their personal liability wasn't covered?

Who would organize and pay for division, national and international meetings, leadership seminars, etc.?

What would you really do without alumni support -- in terms of time, treasure and talent as they say (advisors, house corps., etc.)?

Who would be the protector of traditions and history?

How long do you think your organization would last without that support?

How much experience and background do members in the average chapter have in running a business -- and I'm sorry, but running a chapter really is a business with income and expenditures, personnel problems at all.

Do you really think that undergraduates have the knowledge, experience and skill to make a national or international organization work? Do they have the time?

How many undergraduates have the skills and intestinal fortitude to step up to a brother and sister and enforce the rules if he or she is out of line?

By the way, even in the locals mentioned briefly above, don't you suppose there is a cadre of loyal alumni helping the actives work through the problems of keeping a chapter running?

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about rules and laws and insurance and how to keep our chapters running.

It ain't a perfect world.

How many of your chapters have problems collecting dues, paying bills, keeping the house maintained and things along those lines because there is a weak officer or even one who doesn't really have the time to devote to the job. Someone with great intentions, who just doesn't get it done?

Those are some of the things that Nationals and alumni do for the undergraduate chapters.

Unfortunatley, enforcing the rules and the law are part of that job as well.

[macallan25]

Originally posted by shinerbock
First, it isn't naive not to appreciate nationals. When we go to convention, our officers from the big southern chapters are the ones they ask to speak in all the sessions. So basically, we pay to teach everyone else what to do. Most national officers are people who weren't in good chapters, and therefore really have nothing to pull from in helping other chapters around the country. Secondly, nationals does treat different chapters differently. Our national org constantly looks the other way regarding things we do, and we generally ignore what they do. We don't follow the changes in terminology, or the PC'ing of our fraternity literature. We don't have a regional advisor, which I assume is due to the fact that they really just don't wanna know. It works for them, it works for us.

Glad someone finally posted something like this. People don't realize that the big powerful southern chapters really do get preferential treatment. Go to Alabama and have people tell you about things the SAE's have done there. Pretty amazing, and Nationals just turns the other cheek. Same with FIJI at Texas or Phi Delt at Ole Miss. So no, you can't just say, well, if you break the rules you will lose your charter. Not so...i've seen it plenty of times and so have others.

[PiKA2001]

Originally posted by macallan25
Glad someone finally posted something like this. People don't realize that the big powerful southern chapters really do get preferential treatment. Go to Alabama and have people tell you about things the SAE's have done there. Pretty amazing, and Nationals just turns the other cheek. Same with FIJI at Texas or Phi Delt at Ole Miss. So no, you can't just say, well, if you break the rules you will lose your charter. Not so...i've seen it plenty of times and so have others.

Co-sign

[macallan25]

Thanks PiKa2001. It really is true. And I completely understand all of the stuff that Heather17, DeltAlum, and AGDee are saying. I am well aware of the insurance aspect of the Fraternity System and I am well aware of how negative hazing can affect it. I think many people on here think that us who talk about the big Southern chapters are bragging and being ignorant....but we really are speaking the truth. Thats the difference between greek systems in the South and all of the rest, and its often hard to explain because people that don't know think we are simply talking out of our ass.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by macallan25
...people that don't know think we are simply talking out of our ass.

What some people think is that perceived arrogance and conceit like this shows a lack of respect for great Greek systems like Inidana, Illinois, Penn State, Michigan and a lot of others.

[macallan25]

I don't have a lack of respect for others.....I just think that they are different.

[LPIDelta]

Some chapters are, perhaps, treated differently but I would guess it has more to do with money and size, than location. In my personal experience, it has more to do with the local advisors.

I am kind of appalled that someone would complain about the opportunity to speak at an inter/national conference/convention. It should be an honor. If you really feel used, don't do it, please, because that is not the kind of attitude I would want passed around to other chapters.

If you think you're the best--then you have an obligation to be models and lead with purpose. If your chapter doesn't like being national or the rules/fees that come with that--then maybe you should vote to go local.

[PiKA2001]

Originally posted by macallan25
Thats the difference between greek systems in the South and all of the rest, and its often hard to explain because people that don't know think we are simply talking out of our ass.

With what DeltAlum said, the greek systems at Michigan or Indiana are considered some of the best in the nation. But what I do agree with is how influential chapters in the big greek systems are able to continue to operate because nationals and the host school tend to turn the other cheek.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Heather17
If you think you're the best--then you have an obligation to be models and lead with purpose. If your chapter doesn't like being national or the rules/fees that come with that--then maybe you should vote to go local.

If, as he's said, their national is letting them get away with doing whatever they want to do, why should they?

I've applauded any time (well, not applauded, but for lack of a better word) I've seen a sorority or fraternity on here that screwed up be closed down even if they were one of the bigger chapters in the national org and popular on their campus. On the other side of the coin, there was a thread on here where the advisor was bemoaning some of the risk management nightmares that had been going on for years - but the chapter saw no need to change their ways. They were a big chapter on campus, bringing in lots of $$$ and the national had only given them slaps on the wrist for repeated offenses. So where would be their motivation? It had already been made clear to them by the national's behavior that as long as they kept bringing in the members and money, they had carte blanche.

There can't be one standard of behavior for the small chapters that are struggling, and one for the kings/queens of the campus or organization. If your Ole Miss chapter that has taken quota/been over total for the past 100 years screws up royally, they should get the same treatment that the chapter at BFE State with 10 girls gets if they do the same thing.

[LPIDelta]

33--good post. That may be the first time you and I agree on something. You're right--some groups and schools don't do enough to set the same standards for all chapters, and it is a shame.