GA president assails ban on new frat houses

[macallan25]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Tried to find a Greek Link on UGa. Site. Couldnt find it.

Guess that shows what they feel about Greek Orgs.

If I am in error, please post link for me.

Did you not try the search button? I found the Greek Life page pretty quickly.

[Tom Earp]

Thanks, G P!

Doesnt show any GLO links though~

Still shows Me how Un.Ga. must feel!

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Thanks, G P!

Doesnt show any GLO links though~

Still shows Me how Un.Ga. must feel!

Yes it does. If you click on "NPC" you will be directed to the local Panhellenic Council's website which has links to the chapter websites.

[notyouraverage]

"The fraternity issue will be voted on at the County Commission meeting tomorrow night (Tuesday August 1) and I'm hoping to have as many people as possible come out to stand up on this issue.

The proposal before the Commission is to declare fraternities and sororities a "special use", meaning that in order for a fraternity or sorority to build, they would need to get approval from the Planning Commission as well as the Mayor and Commission. From some of the hateful comments that have been flung around in this debate, such as "fraternities do nothing beneficial for anyone" from Planning Commissioner Jerry NeSmith, you can see how difficult it would be for any fraternity or sorority to get a fair hearing if this were to pass.

Please come to the Commission meeting tomorrow night, Tuesday August 1, at 7 pm at Athens City Hall (Washington Street, downtown) to express your views to the Commissioners. I am planning to speak about the benefits that fraternities and sororities bring to the community in terms of service - it would be nice to have some real life examples of that.

If you can make it to the meeting, please call Chuck at 706-202-5548 as soon as possible and let me know that you will be there. Call at any hour of the day or night, and please try to make it to the meeting! If you have any questions call me also. Thanks very much and I look forward to seeing a lot of Greek citizens at the Commission meeting to counter some of the unfair stereotypes.

Sincerely,

Charles A. "Chuck" Jones, Jr.
Candidate, Athens Clarke County Commission District 9
"The Students Rights Candidate"
(706) 202-5548

[Firehouse]

If the City makes it impossible for fraternities to relocate, won't that end the university's effort to move the houses off Lumpkin?

[notyouraverage]

no, not really. They are "providing" housing on another less central, smellier part of campus. But they would own the houses and dictate their features. Most people speculate that the suggested site is in NO WAY big enough for all the fraternities to move there, at least big enough to mirror the current size of the fraternity houses. This whole mess started because KA Order bought property in a "historically black" neighborhood. The residents became extremely upset and held town-hall type meetings to try to stop them from moving in. I'd like to point out that it is illegal to prevent someone from living wherever they choose on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc. Rather than make a decision on whether or not they would be allowed to move in, they suspended the issue until... August. It's August (and conveniently the day before sororities move back in) and now the issue is being brought up again.

"Fraternities do nothing beneficial for anyone" according to Planning Commissioner Jerry NeSmith - I hope Athens GCers will make it to the meeting to prove him and others wrong about Greeks - that we give thousands of dollars and hours to charities and that we have the capability to be good neighbors, whether we live next to the cutest house or live next to GDIs.

[Firehouse]

It would seem like georgia fraternities' alumni would be able to stop this crap from the university. It (I'm trying to remember) affects Pikes, Chi Phi and KA. I remember those as three big guns at UGA.

[Jerry NeSmith]

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

[brobuzzz]

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

Mr. NeSmith, I do not live in Georgia, I do not vote in Athens, and I make no claim to validate what Mr. Jones has previously said about you or your views on anything. However, from my own experience and those related to me (both on this site and elsewhere), for a University to be backing the Greek community the way they seem to be, either the University is doing something completely underhanded or the city has actually wronged the students in some manner. This combined with the (rare) almost favorable media coverage directed at KA and SigNu, it would seem as though the city does not value the Greek community as much as you may like people to think. A few questions, since your position would seem to make you a rather trustworthy source on the matter.

1) Why did the city council hold the hearing on this matter for a time when they knew almost no fraternity members would be present?

2) Under what existing justification does the city council have the right to deny housing to anyone?

Or,

Is the real issue that the council likes to say that they appreciate the Greek community as long as the Greek community is restircted to the area already under control of the University?

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Jerry NeSmith

Mr. Jones,
I don't usually jump into these discussions to express my opinion, but I must jump in when someone talks about me, especially when they mislead their readers.

I never said what you have quoted me as saying. I never implied such a thing. I never even thought such a thing. I am positive that everyone on the ACC Planning Commission understands and appreciates the value of the Greek system as a part of the college experience. I am also aware of the good deeds that fraternities and sororities do for our community.

Please refrain from imagining things that I said and then reporting your imagination as facts.

Jerry NeSmith

Very intersting post with only one post isnt it?

IF it is the true Mr. Smith then it will be looked at as it has and found bogus as it were!

[ElectChuckJones]

Planning Commissioner NeSmith:

I distinctly recall your comments at the April 6, 2006 meeting of the Planning Commission at which you railed at some length that fraternities and sororities have no place in a community, that they add nothing to a community, that they bring no benefit to a community. Members of a Planning Commission are not people whose names one typically remembers; I remember your name because even among the anti-Greek comments from that meeting, I was startled by what I perceived as very vitriolic comments from you. That's why I remembered your name. I respectfully stand by my recollection of the comments of that evening.

If you have a different recollection, please feel free to share it with me by e-mail at chuck@electchuckjones.com.

Is the real issue that the council likes to say that they appreciate the Greek community as long as the Greek community is restircted to the area already under control of the University?

I think this is precisely it. At the recent Mayor and Commission meeting, the Mayor sternly criticized Gwendolyn Boone ("notyouraverage"), a young woman of great class who bravely came forward in an overwhelmingly hostile room to express her opinion to her elected officials, as she had every right and responsibility to do. The Mayor said that the issue had nothing to do with appreciating the Greek community.

Sure, the Mayor and the Commission appreciate the Greek community, they just spit in the Greeks' face every chance they get. But that doesn't mean they don't APPRECIATE the Greeks and appreciate the good work that they do. Right??

At what point does the greek community take this approach to convincing people we don't ruin everything. Just throw up our hands and say, "Fine, we wont help you anymore." I think it'd take about a semester for people to like us.

Unfortunately, I think that's what it will take. The sad thing is that it is really the people who need help who will be suffering. It is not Planning Commissioner NeSmith who will be suffering when Greeks in Athens declare a moratorium on philanthropy. But if the people in a community are not going to appreciate you (or are going to "appreciate" you but continue to spit in your face), there are plenty of other needy communities who would be very glad to benefit from your generosity.

[notyouraverage]

Thanks for your kind words, Charles.

Greeks will never give up on philanthropy, though. No matter how many rights as citizens and voters are taken away, we'll never put our philanthropies "on hold" for a semester, even if to prove a point. The money my chapter raises through AnchorSplash supports schools for children who are visually impaired all over the country, not just in Athens. Those children, and especially the parents of those children, count on us.

What we CAN do, however, is stress to our individual chapters the importance of
1) good neighbor relations. There should never be cause for an independant living on "Greek Row" to stand up against greeks. We can do this by informing our neighbors before we hold large parties, by keeping our lawn immaculate (though on Milledge, I hardly think this is a problem) and by making cleanup after gamedays immediate - we could even invite neighbors to our barbeques.
2) lifetime membership. I was heartbroken at that meeting when so many of our civic leaders felt it would make me feel better by saying "I was in a fraternity in college." I'm sure they were, but they clearly missed the point that membership is for lifetime. We all know about the astounding percentage of greeks that hold office, but what good does that do when they "were greek in college" not greek for life? So impress on your collegiate members that their duty to their greek brothers and sisters does not end when they receive a diploma. I would love to see an elected politician say that they are willing to work with greek organizations to train men and women how to be good neighbors rather than kicking them out of the neighborhood.
We are some of the brightest, most active students at our universities. Statistically we have amazing futures full of philanthopic and civic work. We give more money back to our alma maters than any other group and it's about time we start being treated as a treasure rather than trash by both the university and the community.

[EE-BO]

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

While this may seem to be a long post by EE-BB, it is alot truer than many may think!

My College tried to do this at My Alma Mater to get us off of The Main Road which runs in front of campus.

All of the GLO Houses except 2 are on this street with High Profile and they wanted to get us off and in the Boon Docks.

Well, they could not do it as We owned our houses and the cry went out and the lash back was tremendous.

Now, in the case of Ks.Un, the Houses were bought (9) I beleive, and forced by the Un. and Appartments, cheap to say the least were put there!

In the case of William-Jewell on the metro area of KC, the School offered land with one exception, they want to have Houses that were above 1,000,000 $ in a Cul da Sac or there abouts.

It is leased for $1.00 for a long term lease.

In their case, it has worked out nicely.

MTSU-Tenn. has built great Houses, but they are becoming a hardship on the GLOS.


But, it alwys seems that We can be our own worst ememys.

We jsut built a new House, but if there are not enough beds filled or enough Members, they will go by the way side.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Been following this with interest.

Frankly, I think UGA administration and the student newspaper are far more favorable to the Greek Community than some other institutions. And the Greek Community is widely respected there by non-Greeks, unlike at many schools.

I spent a few quarters at UGA a few years ago when stiffer zoning laws were passed that prevented groups of students from buying homes near campus to share. As I recall the rule stated no more than 3 unrelated persons could share a residence.

For those who have never been there, the Greek Houses and many student apartments occupy a long piece of land just a few blocks wide (and share that with subsidized government housing and business districts.)

The University is on one of the long sides of that area of land, and a very old high end neighborhood is on the other- a neighborhood that has always tolerated Greek and student housing, but has been adamant that it never expand beyond Milledge into the neighborhood.

So Greek Houses have few practical options when it comes to moving and wanting to be in a desireable location- even without what is going on right now.

Upsetting as this all is, I think it is going to be a problem at many schools- though it will take different forms.

West Campus- just West of the University of Texas- is pretty much all privately owned, but it is narrowly confined to about 8 by 10 city blocks.

U. Texas houses only a very small percentage of its students, and so over the years the number of apartment complexes and condos in West Campus has grown each time someone could buy up land and tear down either a small old complex or a Greek house and build a tall residential building.

Just to give you an idea- the one year I lived in West Campus during school and was not in my fraternity house or University Towers, my rent was $1,500 a month! This was 9 years ago and on par with the rent for a Manhattan apartment.

I was driving around West Campus just the other day and more and more apartments are going up.

The bad news here as well is that fraternities are routinely suspended or have their charters revoked for various reasons.

And once that house is gone, they are increasingly being converted into something else far more profitable. With the rise in property values, and the reassessment for property tax purposes every time a sale is made, it is becoming prohibitive for alumni groups to buy what few unoccupied houses remain and ever hope to recoup their investment or even break even. I found a small 10 bedroom house in West Campus for sale the other day on a tiny piece of land. Asking price? $1.1 million. The few big houses with ideal placement on large pieces of land are easily worth $10 million or more at this point.

But you need a good house to revive a fraternity.

So the number of Greek houses is shrinking and we are basically killing ourselves off by virtue of a culture of behavior and university perception that leaves us without allies.

My point is this- what is happening at UGA is far less bad than what is happening elsewhere since at UGA the Greek system has non-Greek allies advocating on their behalf. The solution will surely not be ideal, but at least there will be a solution.

And I would hope Greek Communities at places like U. Texas would look to systems like UGA's to realize how valuable it is when you can point to a strong record of philanthropy and continued chapter operations without serious incidents.

The story at UGA is a very good example of why the whole "old skool" vs. "new skool" argument is quickly becoming irrelevant. Alumni with lots of money is not enough anymore as economic pressures of expanding universities and the "not in my neighborhood" mentality of residents crowds us out.

At many campuses, it is now an issue of survival.

While this may seem to be a long post by EE-BB, it is alot truer than many may think!

My College tried to do this at My Alma Mater to get us off of The Main Road which runs in front of campus.

All of the GLO Houses except 2 are on this street with High Profile and they wanted to get us off and in the Boon Docks.

Well, they could not do it as We owned our houses and the cry went out and the lash back was tremendous.

Now, in the case of Ks.Un, the Houses were bought (9) I beleive, and forced by the Un. and Appartments, cheap to say the least were put there!

In the case of William-Jewell on the metro area of KC, the School offered land with one exception, they want to have Houses that were above 1,000,000 $ in a Cul da Sac or there abouts.

It is leased for $1.00 for a long term lease.

In their case, it has worked out nicely.

MTSU-Tenn. has built great Houses, but they are becoming a hardship on the GLOS.


But, it alwys seems that We can be our own worst ememys.

We just built a new House, but if there are not enough beds filled or enough Members, they will go by the way side.