biggest fraternities?

[UTKappaSig21]

We dont claim to be the oldest, we ARE, founded in 1400 in bologna

[roqueemae]

How many orgs were founded back in the 10th century with the Masons?

[Rudey]

You guys sure do punch below the belt. Ouch.

-Rudey

[iMAX386]

Anyone have any update numbers?

[Coramoor]

Originally posted by UTKappaSig21
We dont claim to be the oldest, we ARE, founded in 1400 in bologna

I've read that some many times, and every time I call BS.

All Greeks orgs are based on prior societies. Going by your logic we can all claim to be founded hundreds if not over a thousand years ago.

[kapsigcub]

You are incorrect. All greek orgs are not necessarily based on prior societies. You have no basis to speculate about the history of an Order that you aren't a member of.

Please don't comment on our history, I will extend the same courtesy for you.

[ZZ-kai-]

Every fraternity/sorority has roots leading somewhere. If that is Italy back in the 1500's, great. If it's the Freemasons, great. If it's Phi Beta Kappa or the Flat Hat Club, great.....but, anyone can trace their respective history as far back as they want, if they choose to.

Does Kappa Sigma still have a chapter in Italy? Did they ever?

Just curious.

[ksig]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Every fraternity/sorority has roots leading somewhere. If that is Italy back in the 1500's, great. If it's the Freemasons, great. If it's Phi Beta Kappa or the Flat Hat Club, great.....but, anyone can trace their respective history as far back as they want, if they choose to.

Does Kappa Sigma still have a chapter in Italy? Did they ever?

Just curious.

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

[banditone]

n/m.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by ksig

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

I expect to start hearing from Chi Phi any minute. Bairds, the "bible" of fraternity history, recognizes Kappa Alpha Society, the oldest of the Union Triad, as the oldest social fraternity. "Claiming" and "proving" are two different things. I can show independent sources for our founding in 1832. Kappa Sigma has had 150 years to prove their antiquity. I believe the phase is "put up, or shut up".
On the original topic, Alpha Delt is more concerned about being the best fraternity, not the biggest. We choose not to charter organizations at every directional school (Northwest State College, Eastern Massachusetts University etc). I get a fresh inquiry every three weeks or so about starting ALpha Delt at various schools, but we choose not to go that way. If that makes us snobs, then so be it. Alpha Delt is well known amongst the top schools in North America. That's all we care about.

[ZZ-kai-]

Wow, I didn't know that Alpha Delt was so prestigious....you guys just cherry pick the good ones!

wptw - as always, great comment.

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

I expect to start hearing from Chi Phi any minute. Bairds, the "bible" of fraternity history, recognizes Kappa Alpha Society, the oldest of the Union Triad, as the oldest social fraternity. "Claiming" and "proving" are two different things. I can show independent sources for our founding in 1832. Kappa Sigma has had 150 years to prove their antiquity. I believe the phase is "put up, or shut up".
On the original topic, Alpha Delt is more concerned about being the best fraternity, not the biggest. We choose not to charter organizations at every directional school (Northwest State College, Eastern Massachusetts University etc). I get a fresh inquiry every three weeks or so about starting ALpha Delt at various schools, but we choose not to go that way. If that makes us snobs, then so be it. Alpha Delt is well known amongst the top schools in North America. That's all we care about.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by ZZ-kai-

Wow, I didn't know that Alpha Delt was so prestigious....you guys just cherry pick the good ones!
Just compare our chapter roll to US News rankings, or any other you care to choose.

wptw - as always, great comment.

I agree. It is hard to hear these claims (and those of Chi Phi) so many times without getting just a bit annoyed. Thank you for stating the case less provocatively and more throughly.

[JonInKC]

Originally Posted by ksig

Kappa Sigma established the first chapter at the University of Bologna in 1400 and spread across Europe. William Grigsby McCormick, one of the American founders, traveled to Europe in the mid 1800s and was taught about the fraternity by one of it's members, who encouraged him to establish a chapter in America because the fraternity had almost disappeared in Europe. A clay jug with the letters on it dating back to the 1400s was found about 20 years ago in a collection of Italian pottery. I dont believe there are any chapters in Europe today.

Interesting, I wasn't even aware there were Greek letter societies in the 1400s, particularly in Europe...

[wptw]

Originally Posted by JonInKC

Interesting, I wasn't even aware there were Greek letter societies in the 1400s, particularly in Europe...

There weren't. That's the point.

Every time someone jumps on GC thumping their chest and proclaiming they were founded in 1400 in Bologna, I feel compelled to speak up. I usually regret it afterward because some Kappa Sigmas inevitably feel I'm maligning them. That's not the case at all, so I'll try to tread more lightly this time... (no promises though, IyamwhatIyam)

Kappa Sigma is a great organization with a solid history, but I wish they would emphasize with new members that the Bologna history is a parable, and that there is no direct evidence linking the KS society in Bologna to modern day Kappa Sigma. The Chrysoloras backstory is a fantastic thematic foundation for a fraternity ritual - truly, one of the best among all fraternity rituals, and I've pretty much seen them all - but it's just that and not more.

Many times I see someone reply that the proof is esoteric and only available to members. But this is not true either. I'm giving nothing secret away by saying that the printed ritual and associated documents say no more about the connection between the two groups than the public histories do. Older and/or wiser Kappa Sigma alums concur in private messages to me over the years.

Now this "clay jug with the greek letters" thing is something I've started hearing only recently, and I'm inclined to put it in the greek urban legends category. It's got that vague urban-legendy feel to it, doesn't it? And anyway, the original group didn't use the greek letters Kappa and Sigma for their name, so this one's a little fishy. Maybe some greek dude named Kevin Smith left his monogrammed beer stein behind after vacationing in Italy, who knows. But OK, maybe that's true. Even if true, it doesn't really prove anything anyway - no one disputes the existence of the original group. The dispute is whether the original group was anything more than an inspiration for Mr. Jackson who in the 1880s (10+ years after the founding, mind you, with no prior mention of the story anywhere!) was trying to add some thematic elements to the original bare bones 1860s ritual to compete with the more "flowery" rituals of his contemporaries. He was trying to "gild the lily" (or I should say "gild the apple" ), and as I said, I think he really did a great job. But guys, it's allegory, not history.

(Oh, by the way ksig, the modern history claims, as you do, that McCormick was the famous European vacationer. But in 1887, Jackson writes that it was Hollingsworth, Rogers, Dunlap and others who were traveling in Europe. Not McCormick. McCormick, a wealthy capitalist from Chicago, was brought in later along with Semmes and Toadwin. So the "facts" are still somewhat confused to this day.)

But here's the thing that seals it for me: If evidence of a direct link existed, Kappa Sigma could show it without revealing any more information than what is already publicly available. Yet they haven't. Also, I have fairly detailed ritual discussions with half a dozen senior Kappa Sigma men including two past national officers, and they acknowledge such evidence does not exist.

I wouldn't go as far as tallgreekalum did and say put up or shut up. I wish I could think of a less provocative phrase, but I can't at the moment. So I'll just make this plea: Can't you guys be proud of a strong heritage and a very moving allegorical ritual without trying to lord this "founded in 1400" thing over people all the time? Can't we have a real debate about this historical detail without people getting defensive and playing the secrecy card? Again, all the material relevant to the debate is exoteric anyway.

I wrote a [typically long-winded] essay on this subject about a year ago. It's maybe 90% complete, so maybe I'll finish it up, get it blessed by Kappa Sigma to make sure it doesn't include anything truly esoteric, and then post it.

But somehow I think this assertion will persist, despite. If someone ever starts a thread on oldest greek urban legends, this one predates Betty Crocker, the moon landing and even the library of congress.

Respectfully [FWIW] submitted,
wptw

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by kapsigcub
You are incorrect. All greek orgs are not necessarily based on prior societies. You have no basis to speculate about the history of an Order that you aren't a member of.

Please don't comment on our history, I will extend the same courtesy for you.

I am not sure if You know to much about History of any Greek Groups other than Your own, but I suggest that You look at Your own Ritual and think about what You just posted.

I know nothing of KS Ritual and I am sure vice versa.

I suggest You contact KSIGkid!

Listen stongly to Him, He is a wise KS Brother!

Oh, LXA was Taken from King Rennee of Anjou of France and His beleifes along with I am sure that of Free Masonary as many were for the fact that many memebers were part of Free Masonary.

You really need to check Your facts first!