Yet another article about Greek life

[Lady Pi Phi]

I just thought some of you might want to read this.


http://navisite.collegeclub.com/serv...articleid=4418

[AlphaPhiBubbles]

I don't think I understand what the article is trying to say...I don't know much about greek life at U of A so maybe I am missing out on some details???

[shopgirl]

Interesting article.
Although, it had me a little
confused. Just when I thought
I knew what it was about, it
changed. At first it seems as
though they are bashing U of A's
Greek system. However, the article
ends with a notion that the system
should be left alone. Apparently the
school's administration has too tight
of a hold on the Greek system, and
to some, it isn't right and doesn't
make sense.

I could be wrong.

As an alum of U of A and a member
of a U of A sorority, I agree with some
of the stereotypes mentioned in the article.
Some of the things they mentioned were
things I noticed as soon as I arrived on
campus. Wealthy, beautiful people everywhere.
It was interesting to say the least, but that's
not all there is to the U of A or the Greek system.

[Firehouse]

It is a virulently anti-Greek article start to finish. It's very classist, very typical of the stereotype left-agenda-driven student journalist.
Just as we all talk to each other in this forum and through various Greek gatherings to disucss current issues, so do they. I recognize the theme this writer promotes, and it is one that is echoed acorss the country by similar activists.
When they (student editorial board) say the University should "loosen their ties and make Greek life independent" what they mean is that the UA should withdraw official rcognition from fraternities & sororities, dissolve any Greek Life staff that exists, and drive them off University land. That is exactly what they mean and that is what they mean on other campusses where that same attitude and agenda exists.
The irony is that at some schools the greeks might actually be better off if that were the case. Too often these days the University's rules and regulations of greek-letter groups is so restrictive and Draconian as to be punitive. Fortunately, for those fraternities and sororities who understand the truth about their status at public institutions, most of this intrusive administrative meddling is illegal, and can be dealt with effectively by organized alumni.
I read a Greek Life website just last night and the official "agreement between" the Greeks and the school stated that each chapter was responsible for the behavior of the individual members. What nonsense! What other group or entity on campus would put up with such outrageous requirements? What other group or entity would even be asked to consider it?

[33girl]

I agree with Firehouse. The article was pretty ignorant. I would wager "make them independent" means kick them out of their houses on campus and use the space for something else more PC. Things like this make me damned glad that my alma mater doesn't have houses on campus...

[PSK480]

I agree with the first part of what firehouse says. But, the at last part I don't, I agree that the chapter shouldn't be held accountable to the school for each individual members actions, yet, aren't you supposed to be brothers and sisters? Hold you're brothers and sisters accountable to you and to themselves. Don't be your Brothers'/Sisters' keeper be your Brothers'/Sisters' Brother/Sister.

33Girl: None of the houses are on campus but PSS, ZTA, SSS, DZ, and former ASA/PMA all have university owned houses. Which, according to one of the 5-year plans are going to be vacated and torn down to build a new dorm or on campus apartments and the foundation will give the land back to the university and it will become part of campus.

[madmax]

Originally posted by Firehouse
Fortunately, for those fraternities and sororities who understand the truth about their status at public institutions, most of this intrusive administrative meddling is illegal, and can be dealt with effectively by organized alumni.
I read a Greek Life website just last night and the official "agreement between" the Greeks and the school stated that each chapter was responsible for the behavior of the individual members. What nonsense! What other group or entity on campus would put up with such outrageous requirements? What other group or entity would even be asked to consider it?

None and none but short of hiring a lawyer what are the organizations supposed to do?

[33girl]

Originally posted by PSK480
I33Girl: None of the houses are on campus but PSS, ZTA, SSS, DZ, and former ASA/PMA all have university owned houses. Which, according to one of the 5-year plans are going to be vacated and torn down to build a new dorm or on campus apartments and the foundation will give the land back to the university and it will become part of campus.

I asked someone at the alum office about this...apparently this idea is NOT going over well because if they do tear them down and annex it to campus, it comes off the tax rolls. Right now I think there is a difference btwn the foundation owning it and the college proper owning it that keeps it on. The townspeople are irritated enough at the university sucking up so much land. I got the impression from the alum office that since they were building that Magnolia Estate thing that this was off the drawing board...plus I could see ZTA dragging their national in to fight it...I can't imagine them not having that house.

[Firehouse]

You asked: "short of hiring a lawyer, what are organizations supposed to do?". Let me offer the answer, but first let me say that there are not many bad actors on the scene, only a few. Most college administrators are good and decent people who are just trying to balance the concerns of any administration against the natural craziness of young people. Unfortunately, just as one fraternity's bad behavior can cause a lot of trouble for all Greeks, one weak or hateful or egotistical or agenda-driven administrator can create a deep reserve of animosity among the Greeks and their alumni.
The story I'm going to tell you doesn't have any of those bad people in it, and that is an important point.
There is a major university with an outstanding fraternity/sorority system where one lower level Greek administrator who is no longer there decided she was going to impose a version of something called the 'Delaware Five Star program' on the fraternities. Each fraternity president was called in separately and individually, seated at a table across from some administrators, and told that if he had any objections to this program he needed to voice them now. From now on, they were told, each fraternity would have to be 'accredited' or somesuch term, and would have to perform up to cetain standards the university set in areas the University chose. And if these standards were not met, the offending fraternity would have its recognition withdrawn. In addition, it was implied that the university was considering 'deferred rush' with the veiled suggestion that if there was any opposition to the Five Star Program, deferred rush was still on the table.
Most of the chapter presidents were intimidated. They didn't like this program at all but didn't see anything they could do about it. Administrators generally want to deal directly with the chapters and not at all with the alumni, for obvious reasons. The chapter presidents met privately, sent a letter to the University asking for relief from this imposed system, and enlisted the help of alumni.

There was a meeting over dinner. It was very amiable, no harsh words exchanged. No threats, no animosity. On one side was the then-Vice President for Student Affairs and one or two Greek Life staff, and on the other side were alumni from six different fraternities. All were lawyers and one was a judge. The lawyers very calmly explained the law, and suggested that the University had overstepped it's bounds. It was agreed, said the alumni, that the boys needed to make better grades and need to behave and that the alumni would help set up programs to promote those virtues. It was also noted by the alumni that the fraternities belong not to the University, but to the fraternities themselves, and that recognition is not an arbitrary matter but a matter of established law.
The lawyers made it clear that any forced imposition of a so-called 'Five Star program" and/or any sort of deferred rush would be challenged. The judge ended the discussion by saying, "I must tell you, sir, that if this case came into my court, I would consider it a Civil Rights issue."
The meeting ended, and so abruptly did any attempt to impose the 5-Star System or deferred rush. There were no hard feelings because no one was considered to be bad or anti-Greek, and the lawyers were not arrogant or confrontational.
The morale of the story is this: Fraternities and sororities all have responsibilities that we must acknowledge. But we also have rights. The administration knows what our rights are, and too often they count on the undergraduates not knowing. Alumni guardians providing oversight is the answer.

[madmax]

Originally posted by Firehouse
You asked: "short of hiring a lawyer, what are organizations supposed to do?". Let me offer the answer, but first let me say that there are not many bad actors on the scene, only a few. Most college administrators are good and decent people who are just trying to balance the concerns of any administration against the natural craziness of young people. Unfortunately, just as one fraternity's bad behavior can cause a lot of trouble for all Greeks, one weak or hateful or egotistical or agenda-driven administrator can create a deep reserve of animosity among the Greeks and their alumni.
The story I'm going to tell you doesn't have any of those bad people in it, and that is an important point.
There is a major university with an outstanding fraternity/sorority system where one lower level Greek administrator who is no longer there decided she was going to impose a version of something called the 'Delaware Five Star program' on the fraternities. Each fraternity president was called in separately and individually, seated at a table across from some administrators, and told that if he had any objections to this program he needed to voice them now. From now on, they were told, each fraternity would have to be 'accredited' or somesuch term, and would have to perform up to cetain standards the university set in areas the University chose. And if these standards were not met, the offending fraternity would have its recognition withdrawn. In addition, it was implied that the university was considering 'deferred rush' with the veiled suggestion that if there was any opposition to the Five Star Program, deferred rush was still on the table.
Most of the chapter presidents were intimidated. They didn't like this program at all but didn't see anything they could do about it. Administrators generally want to deal directly with the chapters and not at all with the alumni, for obvious reasons. The chapter presidents met privately, sent a letter to the University asking for relief from this imposed system, and enlisted the help of alumni.

There was a meeting over dinner. It was very amiable, no harsh words exchanged. No threats, no animosity. On one side was the then-Vice President for Student Affairs and one or two Greek Life staff, and on the other side were alumni from six different fraternities. All were lawyers and one was a judge. The lawyers very calmly explained the law, and suggested that the University had overstepped it's bounds. It was agreed, said the alumni, that the boys needed to make better grades and need to behave and that the alumni would help set up programs to promote those virtues. It was also noted by the alumni that the fraternities belong not to the University, but to the fraternities themselves, and that recognition is not an arbitrary matter but a matter of established law.
The lawyers made it clear that any forced imposition of a so-called 'Five Star program" and/or any sort of deferred rush would be challenged. The judge ended the discussion by saying, "I must tell you, sir, that if this case came into my court, I would consider it a Civil Rights issue."
The meeting ended, and so abruptly did any attempt to impose the 5-Star System or deferred rush. There were no hard feelings because no one was considered to be bad or anti-Greek, and the lawyers were not arrogant or confrontational.
The morale of the story is this: Fraternities and sororities all have responsibilities that we must acknowledge. But we also have rights. The administration knows what our rights are, and too often they count on the undergraduates not knowing. Alumni guardians providing oversight is the answer.

That doesn't really answer my question. When an organization thinks they are being wronged what are they supposed to do short of hiring a lawyer? These Greeks didn't have a lawyer, they had 5 lawyers and a judge. I understand your point about alumni but if these 6 alumni were salesman I doubt if the school would have caved so easily.

Let's say the groups in your example did not have 5 lawyers and a judge and they didn't meet all the criteria of the Delaware 5 Star System. The school then revokes recognition. This is a public school where the chapter houses are privately owned so the organizations continue to operate within the law and recruit new members. The school then makes a new policy that says it is violation for students to join unrecognized organizations. Then what do you do?

[Tom Earp]

firehouse is this not so true on many Campi?

Most of the Greek Advisors are placed into this position? Even some as im my school said, I am a Greek and have studied to do this! It is BS! She beleived in the same dogma that was put forward and they, the position, is at the schools personia!

This is a relative New Position that many do not know how to deal with so??????

I could not agree more, that a few, of the members can screw up a totally great Chapter! Is It Right? NO! But, All Pay for it Because of the Chapters Name! Si!

Sad as it might be, it does happen! We all know it!

WE as Greeks Have to be better! Hell We are, BUT, We have to Prove it dailey!

[Firehouse]

madmax: I am not making myself clear. The University has no legal grounds to withdraw recognition, 5-Star program or no, and the University absolutely doesn't have the legal right to forbid any student from joining 'unrecognized groups'. If they were to do so, then the student could sue the University and individual administrators for civil rights violations, and ask for punitive damages. Student organizations do have responsibilities, and we should take them seriously, but at a public University, they are not even allowed to keep a new fraternity or sorority from coming onto the campus. Any group that challenges such a restriction, from IFC or any other, will win.
I have no animosity toward my university or any other, but let me tell you this truth: the power of any administrator is magnified by the ingorance of the students and the laxness of alumni. They actually have relatively little power. Their strength is that they know you don't know that. There doesn't have to be a war between students and administrations, but the answer to bullying and little 'tin-God' mid-level administrators is to simply say 'No". You'd be amazed.

[Firehouse]

OK. Here's the short answer to your question. Simply refuse. Say No. An administrator may then overreact in some dreadful, Draconian manner. When that happens, you won't have to engage a lawyer. They'll be parachuting onto the roof of your house.

[ASUADPi]

I really felt I should respond because I was intiated at U of A, that is where I joined my sorority during spring rush. Now I left the university in 1998, but these are things I remember my then president telling our chapter and things I have heard via friends since then.

One thing, if this rule still applys, if a sorority doesn't have a house, you are not recognized on campus.

Okay next, this was when I was there, so rules might have changed, but sororities couldn't have parties in their house. I know we had a rule men were really only allowed downstairs. If we had a party (like a frat party so to speak) we could and would get in trouble not only by our advisors but by the school also.

After I left the school, U of A prohibited frat parties on campus. Unfortunately the biggest party house (when I was there) was Kappa Sigma and our house just happened to be right next door.

From what sisters told me the reason U of A prohibited this was because they had rules about advertising a frat party. The guys could do it as word of mouth, but they weren't supposed print flyers and hand them out. It was really suppposed to be almost like an exclusive get together because the frats usually invited the sorority girls. I guess Kagga Sigma (or one of the other frats) advertised, ergo, end parties on campus. Plus I guess the parties would last all hours into the night and break the noise code, cops would be called and that's just bad publicity to the campus in the first place.

The article was completely biased against the greek system. Now I don't know how many men go through rush, but I believe sorority rush is still pretty big. I don't know any actives at U of A anymore, but before 500-600 girls would usually go through rush, if not more.

Hope some of what I said helps

Brianna
Alpha Delta Pi

[33girl]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
One thing, if this rule still applys, if a sorority doesn't have a house, you are not recognized on campus.

do you mean not recognized as in the school doesn't consider you an official organization, or not recognized as the campus populace in general doesn't know who you are?