Pregnant Prospective Members?

[Clockwork08]

I would not be against taking a married and/ or a woman that has kids because sorority, regardless of affliation, is a life membership. If sorority was limited to the undergrad experience then I could understand the hesitantion of admitting these women, but very few organizations just emcompass only the undegraduates, Eventually many of us have to find a way to balance family, work, and our involvement in our respective orgs, and I know this can be done b/c I watched my mother do it all my life! That's just my .08 cents

[James]

So anyway. I agree with the people that say the reality is that most girls are not likely to get a bid in a normal Formal Rush system if the its known that the PNM is pregnant.

I just wish we would come out and say it. She's too different. We cut people for all kinds of reasons, many of them are superficial and some are not rational.

But we need to just say: we didn't like him/her, or he/she was too different. All this rationalization is intellectually dishonest. Your average sophomore member is not sitting there catalouging all the problems with a pregnant member, if only because she probably really doesn't know what those problems would be. Its a visceral reaction.

Call a spade a spade.

We did it in my own chapter, I have seen kids get cut because someone had a problem with them in grade school and could sway enough votes to prevent them from getting a bid.

I don't know about sororities but it has to be damn near unanimous when voting on new members for fraternity chapters.

Originally posted by James
Well. And well.

I believe the real issue is "tightness of fit". Any primary group judges proscpective new members on a visceral level. There is an automatic impression that this person either fits or doesn't. Especally in circumstances where you don't know cadidates well or at all. Later, the personality issues become more accute.

The more specialized the group, or the stronger the group identity, the more tightness of fit comes into play.

In sorority Rush, with its unavoidably superficial nature, the sisters are going to have to judge the new PNMs based on gut reactions.

I believe thats reasonable. And if that were the reason given that would be hard to argue against. Tightness of fit is a good explanation for lack of minority recruitment, why we might eliminate the less attractive, the pregnant, and the marrid women. ITs an intangible.

What raises the hackles of some people in this thread is the sophistry of the people thatr don't want to accept pregnant women.

The rationalizations range from:

1 She shouldn't WANT to be involved with a sorority if she is pregnant. there must be something wrong with her.
2. She won't have the money for it.
3. She won't have the time.
4. If she got pregnant she is obviously an irresponsible person.
5. There are a whole bunch of things she should be doing other than sorority from others' points of view.

Those arguments are easily countered and honestly look like what they are, an after the fact justification of exclusion.

But because they offered those arguments I presented a scenario that countered them to see whether the women that used those arguments as a reason to exclude would change their minds.

If they are not, then they should just admit, simply, that they just don't want pregnant women in their chapters, its a valid prejudice. And more intellectually honest.

Adressing your questions angelove:
Yes I think many women would exclude Amy based on their ideas of moral issues. Or appearance.

In my amy scenario she easily has the resources that give her the time to spend with her sorority. In fact she could leave the child at home with her parents that could take care of it and supply caretakers. Something that is not uncommon at all both in wealthy and less wealthy famlies.

So here Amy stands, she has the time, the stats, the money, and wonder of wonders, you know all this before she Rushes through various alum groups. Oh and lets make her a legacy also.

So does Amy get a fair shake or not?

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by James

I just wish we would come out and say it. She's too different. We cut people for all kinds of reasons, many of them are superficial and some are not rational.

But we need to just say: we didn't like him/her, or he/she was too different. All this rationalization is intellectually dishonest.

Call a spade a spade.

Yes, this is it exactly!

[Bama_Alumna]

I just wish we would come out and say it. She's too different. We cut people for all kinds of reasons, many of them are superficial and some are not rational.

I have said that all along. Somebody is going to get cut. It can be because she's pregnant; it can be because she's wearing white shoes after labor day; it can be because she went to the wrong high school; it can be because she dated a sister's boyfriend; it can be because her toenail polish was chipped. We have to cut people, because there are such things as quota and total, which preclude us from offering bids to 500 women each fall. The truth is that probably 95% of the PNMs are perfectly lovely people who would do just fine in any house on our row. But release figures say we have to cut people and, if a PNM is at an obvious disadvantage (like being pregnant) then it makes our job easier.

[justamom]

It may be old and tired, but it's a solid comparison. The job interview.

Many qualified candidates may apply for the position, but the hiring is limited. It doesn't even HAVE to mean "we" don't like them, it's just that there are others "we" like better or relate to more readily.

I can't recall who posted it, but they used a "what if" situation where the sister gets pregnant after initiation. That is something to ponder as we examen our personal feelings on this subject.

[DZPrincess2003]

Originally posted by texasgrl
Well, I forgot to mention that this 27 year old was single, no kids, and spent the first years after high school working. She said she was burned out and wanted to wait before college. Since she she was still single and no kids, she had LOTS of time to dedicate to the sorority. I spoke to her yesterday and she told me that there were 3 other girls who were past the "ideal" sorority years besides her. These three were younger than her and the campus GLOs were very competitive.

She says she was nothing but honest with all sororities during recruitment and still managed to get bids to 2 or 3 "top" houses. It probably helped that she looked very young, according to her sisters, closer to 19 than 26.

I know this lady has friends that range in age from 20 to 75, male/female. All her friends have nothing but good things to say about her. In my opnion, anyone who can get along with that wide age range of people should have NO PROBLEM getting along in a sorority.

BTW, she is now married and in Junior League.

I've been reading all these posts about 27 year olds being in a sorority. I personally am 27 years old and pledged my sorority a year ago. I'm more dedicated to the sorority then some of my 19/20 year old sisters and am social chair. I went to college right after high school but took some time off when my father died and I got married. I went back to school after I was separated and decided that I really wanted to experience sorority life. I live in an apartment off campus and my roommate is 19, turning 20 this month. We are the best of friends. I'm highly mature, so please don't doubt my maturity. I have friends of all ages, including my boyfriends 15 year old sister who I can relate to quite easily.

I don't think it's fair to judge a person on their age. Yes I'm 27, but that doesn't make me less of a sister than anyone else. I go to school full time and work full time as well and still dedicate mounds of time to DZ. I wouldn't make any changes to my life.

I think it's very narrowminded to say that only girls of a certain age bracket should be able to pledge. You're missing out on a lot of wonderful women with that kind of attitude.

My sisters have accepted with open arms, actually begged me to join when I first came out and have never thought twice about my age.

[James]

What you say is correct. Just understand that you are dealing with a population that may have never have much considered what life actually is like, versus what they believe life should be like.

You should graduate high school at 18. You should finish college at 22. You should be married by 25-30. You should be thinking/doing this, that, or the other thing, by such and such a chronological age.

I don't think its malice. For some people I think its just very limited life experiences. And there are others that are so overwhelmed by the variety and often cruelty of life, that they try to see only those people that conform to their limited world view and ignore the rest.

Try not to feel that you need to justify yourself to people that just haven't experienced many of the gray areas of life yet. It diminishes you and ennobles them, erroneously.

Originally posted by DZPrincess2003
I've been reading all these posts about 27 year olds being in a sorority. I personally am 27 years old and pledged my sorority a year ago. I'm more dedicated to the sorority then some of my 19/20 year old sisters and am social chair. I went to college right after high school but took some time off when my father died and I got married. I went back to school after I was separated and decided that I really wanted to experience sorority life. I live in an apartment off campus and my roommate is 19, turning 20 this month. We are the best of friends. I'm highly mature, so please don't doubt my maturity. I have friends of all ages, including my boyfriends 15 year old sister who I can relate to quite easily.

I don't think it's fair to judge a person on their age. Yes I'm 27, but that doesn't make me less of a sister than anyone else. I go to school full time and work full time as well and still dedicate mounds of time to DZ. I wouldn't make any changes to my life.

I think it's very narrowminded to say that only girls of a certain age bracket should be able to pledge. You're missing out on a lot of wonderful women with that kind of attitude.

My sisters have accepted with open arms, actually begged me to join when I first came out and have never thought twice about my age.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by justamom

I can't recall who posted it, but they used a "what if" situation where the sister gets pregnant after initiation. That is something to ponder as we examen our personal feelings on this subject.

Yeah, what happens here? What if she's planning on giving the child up for adoption so, after he or she is born, the child won't subtract from her being a good active sister?

Has anyone had this experience?

[texasgrl]

Originally posted by DZPrincess2003
I've been reading all these posts about 27 year olds being in a sorority. I personally am 27 years old and pledged my sorority a year ago. I'm more dedicated to the sorority then some of my 19/20 year old sisters and am social chair. I went to college right after high school but took some time off when my father died and I got married. I went back to school after I was separated and decided that I really wanted to experience sorority life. I live in an apartment off campus and my roommate is 19, turning 20 this month. We are the best of friends. I'm highly mature, so please don't doubt my maturity. I have friends of all ages, including my boyfriends 15 year old sister who I can relate to quite easily.

I don't think it's fair to judge a person on their age. Yes I'm 27, but that doesn't make me less of a sister than anyone else. I go to school full time and work full time as well and still dedicate mounds of time to DZ. I wouldn't make any changes to my life.

I think it's very narrowminded to say that only girls of a certain age bracket should be able to pledge. You're missing out on a lot of wonderful women with that kind of attitude.

My sisters have accepted with open arms, actually begged me to join when I first came out and have never thought twice about my age.

AMEN!!! Thank You DZ Princess!!! You are also an example of how if you want to be in a NPH sorority past a "certain"age, it is possible.

[TexasOphiA]

We've had several members that had children already.

We've also have had several members get pregnant while active, and they all had to leave the sorority because it was too much for them. Being pregnant takes alot out of you, and doesn't give you alot of time and energy (so i've heard).

I personally wouldn't extend an invite to someone who was pregnant. I would encourage them to try again at a later time. If they already had kids, I might, depending on the situation. For some people, it's hard to balance so many things. And kids take up alot of your time, or at least they should!

[justamom]

Not to mention STUDIES!

[XOMichelle]

Studies take up way too much time in college. I always liked being on campus when I had nothing to do the best. We need college with no studies! Like a summercamp for adults.

[blackerican]

I am a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. I just became a member on 4-17-04. I did it undergrad and I have 2 children (one is 6 the other is 12). I did with the support of my family!!!!

[Contessima]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
I'm always surprised when people think your life is over when you have children. There is this child phenomena that goes around saying that you have to give up everything you want to do in your life to raise good children. Personally, I think that's a bunch of bull. My children will get everything they need to be good people, but I'm not giving up my personal social and career goals so I can be someone's idea of the "perfect mother", only to end up with no friends, no hobbies, and a sinking career when they go off to college. It happened to my Mom, and it won't happen to me!

You all are way too stiff. Not an appropriate activity?? Who are you, royality from the 18th century? I don't think that's you decision, but the decision of the girl who wants to pursue membership.

My boyfriend has a three yer old girl and is a VERY active member of his fraternity, AND he lives in the house. If you didn't read the Article he wrote, you can read it here http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49380&highlight=Stanfor d .

I'm sure this thread is really old, but I was just browsing and wanted to tell you that I think your post is a living example of the creed you have in your signature. Way to go!!

[HelloKitty22]

Originally posted by justamom
It may be old and tired, but it's a solid comparison. The job interview.

Many qualified candidates may apply for the position, but the hiring is limited. It doesn't even HAVE to mean "we" don't like them, it's just that there are others "we" like better or relate to more readily.

I would just like to mention that it is illegal not to hire someone or to fire someone because they are pregnant, specifically because employers were using the same justifications on this board to discriminate against pregnant women. Women spent lots of time fighting to make that type of discrimination illegal, which makes it very ironic that educated college women themselves would be engaging in this type of discrimination.

I'm not saying I'm perfect or that it wouldn't probably take me a minute to overcome my natural prejudices ("she won't have the time or money for a sorority") but I hope that I would have the intelligence to look past that and judge her on her personality and ability to be a good sister.