Sorority suspended for "Indian Party."

[Kevin]

TP, you say those things [border crossing party vs. Cinco de Mayo] are different, but you haven't filled us in as to why those things are different.

Additionally, I'm not sure why warpaint/indian outfits is in and of itself targeted at portraying something negative about a group of people. I can see the border crossing party being offensive since it implies that Mexicans in the United States are here only due to their past (and ongoing) illegal activity. War paint though? What's inherently negative about that?

[texas*princess]

Originally Posted by Kevin

TP, you say those things [border crossing party vs. Cinco de Mayo] are different, but you haven't filled us in as to why those things are different.

Did you not read Drollefille's post? Guess not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by texas*princess

Did you not read Drollefille's post? Guess not.

Her premise is faulty in that I don't think this "cowboys and Indians" party is directed at any real culture. Rather, it seems calculated to imitate the cowboys and Indians found in 20th century serial westerns, e.g., the Lone Ranger, Lonesome Dove, etc.

For what Drole said to ring true, I suppose these ladies would have needed to have a "Cowboys and Sioux" party or something to that effect as there is really no such thing as a broad Native American culture.

[texas*princess]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Her premise is faulty in that I don't think this "cowboys and Indians" party is directed at any real culture. Rather, it seems calculated to imitate the cowboys and Indians found in 20th century serial westerns, e.g., the Lone Ranger, Lonesome Dove, etc.

For what Drole said to ring true, I suppose these ladies would have needed to have a "Cowboys and Sioux" party or something to that effect as there is really no such thing as a broad Native American culture.

Kevin. Read.

However the point here is that somehow, American Indians shouldn't be upset that people dress up like them and get loaded because Catholics/Irish/Mexicans don't get upset about Mardi Gras/St. Patrick's Day/Cinco de Mayo. There's a big difference here. The latter are events that are intended for celebration (even St. Patrick's day), the first is dressing up in an attempt to "imitate" another culture. The equivalent here would be dressing up as a pregnant nun/ pedophile priest combo. I hate that and I get offended by it. VAST difference.

Nothing in that paragraph mentioned "cowboys and indians".

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Your argument kind of begs the question, doesn't it? I mean, you assume that the purpose of this party was to intentionally mock native Americans. I'm sure that the ladies of that chapter would just tell [or they would have before becoming the targets of the PC police] you that the party was all in good fun, that it was "cowboys and Indians" and that they had no clue anyone would be offended by this.

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

An incident happened at my college - that never hit the media somehow - where a guy showed up to a sorority's "Famous Lovers" date party dressed as Liesl's boyfriend from The Sound of Music. He came in full-on Nazi paraphernalia. He went around doing "Heil Hitler" salutes and multiple other offensive and Anti-Semitic gestures. He was told by several Jewish members of the sorority in question to cease and desist. He did not. He was told by male guests at the party who were in fraternities and student government to cease and desist. He did not. He took tons of party pictures that were later posted online doing the "Heil Hitler" salute. He was consequently brought before W&L's Student-Faculty Hearing Board (which deals with issues of sexual assault-sexual harassment-discrimination-offensive behavior, etc). He ultimately wasn't disciplined. But what did he claim to the newspaper, the dean, and the SFHB? He "didn't realize he was doing anything offensive." Even after multiple people told him to stop and he was being offensive, he claimed he didn't know. This is just how people defend themselves! Claiming that "it's all in good fun" doesn't mean the people in question actually thought that - or that what they're doing is OK.

[pbear19]

If I may, I believe the distinction Kevin is making is the difference between the party this chapter had, and doing a party theme about some vulgar, negative stereotype of native americans. I.e., something to do specifically with drinking, or gambling, or a reinactment of a massacre of some kind. That to me would be the same as the border crossing party.

I too am not saying that the party was in any way appropriate, but there are infinite ways it could have been more inappropriate and more offensive, had the actual intent been to offend.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Her premise is faulty in that I don't think this "cowboys and Indians" party is directed at any real culture. Rather, it seems calculated to imitate the cowboys and Indians found in 20th century serial westerns, e.g., the Lone Ranger, Lonesome Dove, etc.

For what Drole said to ring true, I suppose these ladies would have needed to have a "Cowboys and Sioux" party or something to that effect as there is really no such thing as a broad Native American culture.

Kevin, it's exactly the "generic evil Indian in a headdress" image that we see in these movies (and serving as sports team mascots, etc.) that is so offensive, because it erases the reality of American Indian cultural diversity and portrays them in a simplistic and stereotyped fashion.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

An incident happened at my college - that never hit the media somehow - where a guy showed up to a sorority's "Famous Lovers" date party dressed as Liesl's boyfriend from The Sound of Music. He came in full-on Nazi paraphernalia. He went around doing "Heil Hitler" salutes and multiple other offensive and Anti-Semitic gestures. He was told by several Jewish members of the sorority in question to cease and desist. He did not. He was told by male guests at the party who were in fraternities and student government to cease and desist. He did not. He took tons of party pictures that were later posted online doing the "Heil Hitler" salute. He was consequently brought before W&L's Student-Faculty Hearing Board (which deals with issues of sexual assault-sexual harassment-discrimination-offensive behavior, etc). He ultimately wasn't disciplined. But what did he claim to the newspaper, the dean, and the SFHB? He "didn't realize he was doing anything offensive." Even after multiple people told him to stop and he was being offensive, he claimed he didn't know. This is just how people defend themselves! Claiming that "it's all in good fun" doesn't mean the people in question actually thought that - or that what they're doing is OK.

So you can't have a Cowboys and Indian party in any state that is/was home to large Indian populations?

And I really can't believe you are comparing a Cowboys and Indians themed party with a kid dressing up like Nazi SS.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Kevin, it's exactly the "generic evil Indian in a headdress" image that we see in these movies (and serving as sports team mascots, etc.) that is so offensive, because it erases the reality of American Indian cultural diversity and portrays them in a simplistic and stereotyped fashion.

Yes. That's a realistic concern because so many people are looking to a party hosted by the North Dakota Gamma Phi Betas to guide their views on Indian cultural diversity.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by macallan25

So you can't have a Cowboys and Indian party in any state that is/was home to large Indian populations?

And I really can't believe you are comparing a Cowboys and Indians themed party with a kid dressing up like Nazi SS.

I think the argument would be you can't have a Cowboy and Indian party period, actually. Or at least you shouldn't do so if you don't want to get called out on it.

I wasn't really comparing the two parties/incidents, and don't want to. I was just pointing out that people who do offensive stuff are always going to use the excuse that "it was all in good fun," even if it's clear that that's untrue.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes. That's a realistic concern because so many people are looking to a party hosted by the North Dakota Gamma Phi Betas to guide their views on Indian cultural diversity.

That's not a refutation of my point. It's an irrelevant counter.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

I'm not even going to touch the comparison of the GPhiB's conduct to dressing up like a Nazi and shooting "Heil Hitlers" at people. Absurd.

I don't buy that being disciplined by their National has really anything to do with the argument as to whether they should have been punished. I think the national was in a tight spot. I can understand why they acted because to not do so might have jeopardized relations with the ND administration and the administrations of other schools.

These girls were not being openly racist. They were just doing something in good fun. No one was hurt. That should have been the "end of story."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

That's not a refutation of my point. It's an irrelevant counter.

It's pointing out that the point you are making is not rooted in reality whatsoever.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

I think the argument would be you can't have a Cowboy and Indian party period, actually. Or at least you shouldn't do so if you don't want to get called out on it.

I wasn't really comparing the two parties/incidents, and don't want to. I was just pointing out that people who do offensive stuff are always going to use the excuse that "it was all in good fun," even if it's clear that that's untrue.

Why should I get called out for having a Cowboy and Indian party? That's absolutely ridiculous.

........dressing up like a Nazi probably wasn't in all good fun. Dressing like some Cowboys and Indians that you would see in any cheesy western is completely harmless.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Dressing like some Cowboys and Indians that you would see in any cheesy western is completely harmless.

Well, as this incident makes clear, a lot of people don't find it harmless.