Black/Multiracial women in "White" sororities

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
Hi there,
This topic really upsets me, but maybe that is because I live in Canada, where there is nothing as a "white" sorority. All our sororities and fraternites are multicultural, which reflects upon Canada, the most multicultural country in the world.
I think that it is sad the "land of the free" is so racist!!! We do have a few frats that cater to those people who would like a frat geared to their ethnicity or religion, but not a "white" frat... It still boggles me. I am Tri Delta at the University of Toronto which is a very diverse group, we have Christian, Hebrew, and Atheist etc, white, black, asian, filipino, greek, irish, italian, french and the list goes on... Maybe the "land of the free" should try and work on their slogan!

Ummm, no offense and all but I doubt that things are all as lovey dovey and kissy kissy as you seem to think they are. I have a lot of relatives from Canada. I have been to Canada, and white folks up there are JUST as racist IF NOT MORE than they are in the US. White people there just don't talk about it. My cousins lived there for years and hate it.


and FYI, Canada DOES have a BGLO, they are called Gamma Phi Delta I believe, and they have OBVIOUSLY seen the need that you do not.

[Tom Earp]

I do not know about other campuses or Houses, But I have a Brother who is a Brother, not because he is black or white. We have a new Associate Member this semester who i hope gets initiated. This is not about the color of his skin, but the type of person he is! They had a desire to join LXA and we took them for who they are , not for what they are!

There are BGLO'S on the campus I graduated from and some of those Brothers were very good friends of mine! This was in the 60's when it was not fashionable to mix. I did it because they were my friends!
I personally feel an affront to Brother Jenkins by some of the things said, and I hope we all keep and open mind and heart!!!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[canadiandeltagirl]

WOW!
I am so happy to see all this debate being generated, it's great! I still believe in what I had to say. Nowhere in my post did I say that life in Canada is sunshine and roses, we have our fair share of racism, and its sad, even our political parties say racist things, but we are NOT more racist. Knowing two people here, you have no more credibility than I do. I would have to say we have less "issues" than you do. So let me say that I believe that Americans in general are not racist, but that the Frat system is discriminatory, as I have come across fliers from the national offices of sororities that are explain "Why it is beneficial to rush minorities" sorry, but there is something wrong with this picture. Oh and Zchi4Life, trust me I know why such frats (African AM, Latino/a etc) are in existance, could it be segregation? Canada had that too, and we have our "Black" and "Jewish" frats , by the way, we have Alpha Phi Alpha , Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Omega, Alpha Epsilon Pi and a local Delta Pi just to name a few. Never in my post did I say we did not have these kinds of frats and sororities I do have cousins who live in the states and I have visited the states on two occasions, at which time i visited universities and their fraternity system, so i have witnessed it first hand. That doesn't make me an expert, but it did teach me something. As for OoohTeenyWahine, I know there are mulitcultural frats, I went to my sororities convention and I saw all the different people, so I know that some sororities don't see themselves as "white". So I should rephrase what I said: I can not believe that there are still some Americans who see nothing wrong with a "white" frat or sorority. BTW I do like the states, it is a nice country, visited Texas and Washington DC. There are some very nice people, I have never had any problems, just a couple of laughs when people asked me if I lived in an igloo and where I learnt how to speak English so well! I love the way you fought for your country against the British, I just don't like some of the things that your country promotes, I am entitled to my opinion, and I will speak it.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
WOW!
I happy to see the debate this has generated, it's great!
So, I would like to start by rephrasing my opinion: I can not believe that some Americans don't see anything wrong with a "white" sorority. Zchi4life... Nowhere in my post did I say that life in Canada was sunshine and roses, we have our fair share of racism, but trust me, for that person who said we are if not more racist than the states, you are in need of a reality check. I know why these frats where put into place, its called segregation, surprise surprise, Canada had that too. Nowhere did I say we do not have frats and sororities that are geared to those of colour or religion, we have Alpha Phi Alpha, Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Omega, Alpha Epsilon Pi, and the local Delta Pi, just to name of few, so don't think that I am not aware of it.I too have cousins in the states, and i watch something called the news as well I have visited the states on two ocassions in the past 2 years, it is a very pretty country. I have visited Texas, driving through several states and have visited Washington DC (by the way I love Georgetown) when I was there I visited the Universities and their frat system and experienced it first hand, it does not make me an expert, but I did learn of few things. OoohTeenyWahine, I know that there are frats that are mulitcultural in the states, I have been to my convention and have seen it, but when I see recruitment aids from national sorority offices telling the members "Why it is beneficial to recruit minorities" I think there is something wrong with this picture.
Your country is pretty, I have had some good times there, and some good laughs when people asked me if I lived in an igloo and where I learnt how to speak english so well However I stand on what I said, I can't believe that there is such thing as an acceptable "white" fraternity. I am entitled to my own opinion and I will speak, just as you have spoken yours.

We don't really have to explain the existence of our orgs to you. You seem to be asking for some sort of justification for BGLO's and you won't find it here. I have no need to explain my sisterhood to you, but I find the very fact that you would ASK someone to do so to be outrageously offensive.

Who are you to decide what is necessary and what is not? You apparently do not have even the first clue of who we in BGLO's are or what we stand for. Alpha Kappa Alpha has been going strong for 93 years. Nothing you say will or can change the fact that we are a. important in our communities b. serving a purpose which HWGLO's can not and do not recognize or treat and c. growng by leaps and bounds.

Why is it an issue for you that I want to be part of a sisterhood that is dedicated to the service of MY community? Or that such an org would exist. When they were first founded BGLO's were there because we as blacks were not allowed to join WGLOS. That is no longer the case. A history of service to our communities is all the justification that WE need to exist. It is what attracts members to us, and will continue to do so- not the party scene or the keggers, but the service.

You are really speaking on something of which you know far too little. You should watch your tone because you have insulted not just me but MANY of the BGLO members on this board. Check yourself.

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
I have come across fliers from the national offices of sororities that are explain "Why it is beneficial to rush minorities" sorry, but there is something wrong with this picture.

First of all, merely traveling through the states and having cousins who live here does not give you even an inkling as to how America is like. So my friend lovelyivy is right...you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

What's the deal with your beef with HBGLOs and HWGLOs? There was a sad time in America's history that prevented people from hanging out with each other. However, I feel that because times are changing...HWs and HBs are just that...historical.

Where in the #$&*ing world did you ever get the idea that national sororities are going above the call of duty recruit minorities into their organization? When selecting new members for my sorority, an "Affirmative Action" approach is not taken. Maybe they do jacked up things where you're from...or hey--maybe you're the one that's jacked up.

[Destiny00]

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
Hi there,
This topic really upsets me, but maybe that is because I live in Canada, where there is nothing as a "white" sorority.

Come on everyone...let's lay off the girl. I mean, she's not even from a real country...

I'm so tired of Canadian's biting off of everything that America has ever done--everything from baseball to hockey and now our greek system--and then sitting on their a$$e$ and complaining about it. You know, you can't possible understand how our system works by reading a few posts on a message board; I doubt it's the enlightenement you're looking for. Go do some real research and then come back.

Better yet, why don't you take your mountie and elitist attitudes and stay off our boards permanently...'Ay?


[This message has been edited by Destiny00 (edited May 07, 2001).]

[sigmagrrl]

Originally posted by VctoriasSecrt:
i do not know why...but black, white, or other...where you find sisterhood is where you should be...and if there are black women that are in bglo's that have dogged other black woman for finding sisterhood elsewhere...perhaps that is why those particular women found sisterhood elsewhere in the first place...because of encountering negative attitudes like that...get in where you fit in... i have researched some multicultural sororities too that make me think about some things...like the TRUE meaning of sisterhood/brotherhood and personal development...get in where you fit in...not where "society" tells you you should be...


[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited May 06, 2001).]

This is exactly how I feel. I want to explain myself one last time with somewhat of a silly, but VERY true analogy.
Let's say that you dye your natural red hair blonde. But everytime you saw a person with REAL red hair they kicked you in the shin. OUCH! That would suck. Now, the first time it happened, you would think, that person is nuts! But after a while, you would want to avoid ALL redheads. Well, this is sort of how I feel. Like because I do not fit into some sort of preordained mold of what a black woman should be, I got crap for it. Well, after a while, I just stopped associating with the people who constantly kick me in the shins!! I can appreciate my black heritage. Matter of fact, I had a wonderful conversation this past weekend with my mom about LOTS of stuff, race being one of them, like I always do. But, otherwise, I just don't need the aggravataion, the hassle, the crap I got...When I went thru recruitment and found my chapter, I just knew I fit and they did too...Why should I not accept their love and sisterhood because they don't look like me? There are TONS of things that I could tell you to continue to express my history and how I came to have the feelings I do, but I don't want to drudge up all my s*it! Please, just trust that I know what is best FOR ME and accept that not all black women are going to join BGLO's!

[sigmagrrl]

Originally posted by Kimmie1913:
I think the feeling that you do not associate with Black people out of some level of anger and a rejection of Black people is why they are bothered. You post reflects some hostility over the rejection you felt and the expectation that you should conform to their ideal image of you. I suspect that may come across in person as well.
I know what it is like to be ostracised, told you look white, talk white. It is always difficult when you find people constantly questioning your identity and trying to define you for you.

Sigmagirl, what stands out to me in your post is the fact that you have some anger towards those who have burned you in the past. What I hope for you is that you learn to get past that and open yourself up to friendship opportunities that may otherwise pass you by without you knowing it. You sound like yoor expereinces have caused you to be closed off in that way. (of course, that is reading a post and could be way off base, so forgive me if it is wrong) I think there is a benefit to all people to have relationships with diverse groups of friends. Although I do not know you and cannot say what the real effect any of this will or won't have on you may be, there often is a more deep seeded issue when some one simply does not associate with people of their own race. For some, it reflects an internalization of steroetypes about their own people, for others it is a feeling of rejection turned to anger based on past experience.

If I could know, what I would want to know from you is what relevance do you beleive being a Black person holds in your life? Is it irrelevant to your life? Is it an integral deifning part of who you are or something more happenstance about you? I am NOT asking you to answer me. I just suspect that the way that people answer these questions has a lot to do with their feelings on this topic. For me, being a Black person is a central part of my identity. It is significant to me and about me.
[This message has been edited by Kimmie1913 (edited May 02, 2001).]

Kimmie,
I appreciate your candor and introspective post. If this was a therapy website, I would go into the HUNDREDS of instances and experiences I have had that have brought me to this place I am. I don't feel this is the right place, but I have been mentally, socially, and MOST importantly (to my feelings) PHYSICALLY abused by black men and women. Many others would probably feel the way I do if they lived my life...I again thank you for your asking me about myself...It shows you have a great soul...

And to answer your question, being black to me is something that is an afterthought, really, in my daily life. Frankly, it never comes up, in my mind or in my daily conversations...

[sigmagrrl]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet:
For Sigmagrrl:

You seem rather young. NOT immature, just young. Some of silly questions cease importance when you get older and hopefully wiser...

Although I have a personal problem with those African Americans that decide to obviously reject their own and join organizations where I have seen "XYZ" fraternity and White Race on their t-shirts, I really don't have any kinda time to educate Black people on their concept of Asil, because, out here in SoCali, I'm worried about how I am going to pay for my light bill --FOR REAL!!! But just like I said, it's my personal problem and I need to work it out on my own...

Some folks cain't see for lookin'!!! In fact when I discuss similar issues with "the most "vile" perpatrators of all that is racist--The White Males--for some reason they agree with me ... And I'm talkin' bout the kind that call US out our names!!! Not the kindler and gentler--liberals... And for some reason I can make friends with these guys who are the Kard Karryin' Kind ... And it's usually when I'm talkin' 'bout Afrikans in amerikkklan, the utamawazo, the "Auset Papers" and sovereignty in the same sentances ... It don't make no kinna sense!!! It's irony at it's best...

But skeriously, I suspect you go to a school that is predominently caucasian--that is how you rushed your sorority... If your school is public, that means anybody can attend if they fulfill the requirements. So you basically get anyone attending. Most Black folks going to a public university come from a family background of "the first to GO TO College"... Since, folks come with their own cultural mores and family values when they are from the "ghetto" and see you--the assimilated object of the oppressors (kidnappers)--then, how can you expect them to EVER be nice to you?!?!? Especially when you are inadvertantly belittling their upbringing? Hell, they already get it from the police officers that just killed their friend!!! Why the HELL should they hear it from you, too? And don't tell me you have never said to a Black Man, "If only you just got off your butt and worked..." Because I know you have!!!

[This message has been edited by AKA_Monet (edited May 03, 2001).]

OK, some of your post is just too HUH for words. But the parts that I could understand and decipher:

The college I went to was not predominatly anything. It was a very mixed campus. I joined a "WGLO" because I always wanted to, since HS. Back in HS, my friends and I talked about going thru recruitment and couldn't wait. So, what we all talked about we all wanted. Simple as that...

As for the comment to a black man, I haven't said that...

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
Maybe the "land of the free" should try and work on their slogan!

Whoa! Calm down a little, please. I resent someone telling my country to work on its slogan! Not everyone in the U.S. is racist and I don't care to be lumped into that category by someone who doesn't know me. America is a melting pot of many, many cultures and of course there is going to be racism on some level in some areas. For the record, racism is not strictly a "white and black" issue. Please don't be so judgemental.

[equeen]

I haven't posted to this forum in a while. Finding the following link compells me to do so:
http://stuact.tamu.edu/stuorgs/betis

As far as I know, the sorority profiled above, Delta Kappa Delta, is the first, if not the only Asian Indian interest sorority in the nation.

All I can say is awesome! These woman have taken the challange of creating and maintaining the name for the Indian American womanhood. No easy task, but
then, my jati behens have always been up to the challenge.

I admire the sorority's ideals - incorporating the quotation from Rabindranath Tagore speaks to me of how high they aim with their goals. And that's moving to me, in a way that I doubt anyone except those of Asian Indian descent could understand.

The website doesn't necessarily say much, and they are young, to be sure, but I sense power, drive, and ambition emanating from that website.

Call it my desi 6th sense

(OK, so can anyone guess what the italicized words mean? And no fair speaking if you are or know somebody who is Indian!!)

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@-->---
12 Years of the Pride!
Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies


[This message has been edited by equeen (edited May 10, 2001).]

[equeen]

Having said THAT:

Am I a racial minority in my sorority?
Definitely.

Does that keep me from being true to my heritage?
I hope not, what kind of person would I be, if that were so??

Do my Sisters love and respect me as a Sister, for everything that I am, including my heritage?
Absolutely. I first show pride and respect for myself, in all that I am. Without self-respect and self-love, especially for my cultural identity, how can I ask anyone else to accept, love and respect me in that regard?

It's been said before on greekchat, in a slightly different way, but it's just as cogent here:

Who you are makes the organization. The organization does not make you the person you are, it only provides the opportunity for you to make yourself better.


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@-->---
12 Years of the Pride!
Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies[/b]

[This message has been edited by equeen (edited May 07, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by equeen (edited May 10, 2001).]

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by Kimmie1913:
1. The discrimintion continued much furhter than 90 years ago. (You may have been facetious but we all know that it was a reality for many orgs until the 60's and 70's)

2. I do not think that is necessarily a reason to say "don;t join that org." now if it is not their current practice. I don;t mean on paper (because no one would put that on paper today) but in practice.

3. I don;t think you can hold the paper bag test against BGLOs alone. It was a standard through out much of Black social life and extended way outside of BGLOs. Now that is not an excuse of any kind, but blame cnnot be sat at their doorstep alone or as though it was a practice of thier creating. Additionally, that fact does not negate the significant historical distinction between BGLO's and WGLO's as far as the role and opportunity for African-American's is concerned.

1. I used 90 years as the period of time BGLOs have been in existence, so noone would assume I was singling out their organization.

2. Does statement #2 apply to all GLOs or only BGLOs? Judging from some of the comments I have read in GC, I get the impression that it only applies to BGLOs.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gina_lynn:
I just can't see wanting to join an orgainzation that may or may not have admitted you when the orgainzation was founded.

I doubt that I would have been admitted to any NPHC sorority when they were founded.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ice Cold Kreator:
I do think that there is a problem when black people pledge white organizations...white organizations who did not want you...and given the racial problems of the past 100 years...how can any of these organizations teach unity in sisterhood or brotherhood...

You said so yourself, only until about 40 years ago, did the widespread discrimination cease in BGLOs. If you think that past discrimination shouldn't deter someone from joining a BGLO, why should it be a deterrent from joining a PWGLO?

3. I'm not holding BGLOs solely responsible for paper bag testing. I realize that universities, churches, etc were also involved. But this thread isn't about universities and churches. It's about greek letter organizations. IMO, to say "all the other Black organizations were discriminating too" is an excuse. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, I don't think your orgs. founders would have followed suit.

I'm not asking these questions to be facetious. I just really don't understand why it is okay to join a BGLO that would have discriminated against me in the past, but not okay to join a PWGLO that would also have discriminated against me in the past. Please enlighten me.

[DGPhoney]

Originally posted by canadiandeltagirl:
WOW!
I happy to see the debate this has generated, it's great!
So, I would like to start by rephrasing my opinion: I can not believe that some Americans don't see anything wrong with a "white" sorority. Zchi4life... Nowhere in my post did I say that life in Canada was sunshine and roses, we have our fair share of racism, but trust me, for that person who said we are if not more racist than the states, you are in need of a reality check. I know why these frats where put into place, its called segregation, surprise surprise, Canada had that too. Nowhere did I say we do not have frats and sororities that are geared to those of colour or religion, we have Alpha Phi Alpha, Alpha Kappa Alpha, Alpha Omega, Alpha Epsilon Pi, and the local Delta Pi, just to name of few, so don't think that I am not aware of it.I too have cousins in the states, and i watch something called the news as well I have visited the states on two ocassions in the past 2 years, it is a very pretty country. I have visited Texas, driving through several states and have visited Washington DC (by the way I love Georgetown) when I was there I visited the Universities and their frat system and experienced it first hand, it does not make me an expert, but I did learn of few things. OoohTeenyWahine, I know that there are frats that are mulitcultural in the states, I have been to my convention and have seen it, but when I see recruitment aids from national sorority offices telling the members "Why it is beneficial to recruit minorities" I think there is something wrong with this picture.
Your country is pretty, I have had some good times there, and some good laughs when people asked me if I lived in an igloo and where I learnt how to speak english so well However I stand on what I said, I can't believe that there is such thing as an acceptable "white" fraternity. I am entitled to my own opinion and I will speak, just as you have spoken yours.

ok, like Zchi said I too wasn't going to even bother with this thread anymore, because it has gone around the world and back tripping on some serverly silly stuff. Candiangirl, now that u have some much American culture from visitng the US twice, u must have learned an aweful alot in such an extension time period.
By visiting a school here and there , and see a fraternity and sorority here and there does not qualify you as a Greek Life Expert, Greek life is different on almost every campus you go too. which is something us greeks fight for everyday to get away from those drive by people who cast quick assumptions on a quick glance at greek life.If you want to know about us and how we function and what we do, then more then an hour or a day is needed to truly understand Greek Life!
Second , so called flyers, in each org they don't push for a specfic female or male because of their race, but the actual person that they are! As for the igloo thing, umm that has nothing to do with greek life, and obviously either the people you were talking to where joking, didn't care, or didn't kow where u where from.
As to your last two comments, well all might see these "white sororities" acceptable but thats there history, same as with a BGLO thats there history, and etc... Most sororities and fraternities are not like that today, we all try our best to show love to all, which is one of the reasons that makes greek life so special. when it all comes down to it, GLO, BGLO, MCGLO, AGLO, LGLO and whoever else I might have forgot(sorry ya'll it's late) we all stand together, cause when it all comes down to it, we are all greek no matter what the org is , or what their history is. And yes you are correct you are entitled to your own opinion, as the rest of us, but don't expect us not to get mad, when u have no knowledge of the subject at hand. Me personally, I love and respect all my greek brothers and sisters , NO MATTER WHAT ORG THEY ARE IN , WHAT RACE THEY MAY BE, OR WHAT THERE VIEWS ARE!
Always DGPHONEY~

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"Simply the Best, Delta Gamma Pi"
http://everythingblack.websitenow.com/citron

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:
I see that several NPHC members have brought up the fact that the predominately White Greek letter organizations had a past filled with racial discrimination. Most can't fathom why an African-American would want to join an organization that wouldn't have given them the time of day 90 years ago. Likewise, I have wondered why a dark-skinned African American would want to join a BGLO that once used the paper bag test. Hell, 90 years ago, the BGLOs wouldn't have wanted them either. Especially if they were the descendent of share croppers, like me. I think the discrimination enacted by the BGLOs is worse than the discrimination enacted by PWGLOS, but that's just my opinion.

I do realize that things have changed drastically since 1906 and 1908. Such things do not happen anymore (I hope) and somehow, people are able to either overlook this ugly part of their organization's history, or it was never an issue for them in the first place. My question is this, if African Americans realize that things are changing within their own organizations (with respect to skin color and social status), why is it so difficult to realize that things are changing in the predominately White organizations as well (with respect to racial diversity)?

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited May 05, 2001).]

1. The discrimintion continued much furhter than 90 years ago. (You may have been facetious but we all know that it was a reality for many orgs until the 60's and 70's)

2. I do not think that is necessarily a reason to say "don;t join that org." now if it is not their current practice. I don;t mean on paper (because no one would put that on paper today) but in practice.

3. I don;t think you can hold the paper bag test against BGLOs alone. It was a standard through out much of Black social life and extended way outside of BGLOs. Now that is not an excuse of any kind, but blame cnnot be sat at their doorstep alone or as though it was a practice of thier creating. Additionally, that fact does not negate the significant historical distinction between BGLO's and WGLO's as far as the role and opportunity for African-American's is concerned.