ITT We Discuss Theology

[SWTXBelle]

Everything you could want to know - http://anglicanuse.org/index.htm

eta - Maybe you were thinking of the Sisters of the Poor? They left ECUSA for RC. St. Mary's in San Antonio started with ECUSA under a different name.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Bumping this for a question that frequently bothers me:

Prayer - the type where you pray FOR someone/something. Does it work? If so do people who have people to pray for them deserve better outcomes? If not then why do it?

I always got caught in a recursive "can't just pray for one person why not everyone in the whole world well what's the point then" thought process.

/overthinks things, I know

I've been letting this one perculate for a few days. I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I tend to think a proper answer may turn on what is meant by "prayer" and what is mean by "work."

I think too often, people think of prayer as asking for things, whether for ourselves or others. This may be okay as far as it goes, but if one isn't careful, it turns God into Santa Claus and prayer into a wish list. If I got what I wished for, it worked; if I didn't, it didn't. I fall into this trap myself sometimes.

But I think a better understanding sees prayer as conversation, the goal of which is deeper relationship with God and with others. Conversation, of course, involved talking and listening. Intercessory prayer in such a context "works" not only if the thing prayed for happens (say, cure from cancer), but also if the prayer produces a change in me and my understanding of how I need to relate to the person for whom I'm praying, a change in that person or a change in my understanding of how the prayer is being answered.

I know that in my own prayers, I try to remember to pray for all who suffer, including those known to me. I also have a tendency not to get too specific -- I tend to pray, say, for healing and comfort and peace and good, with an understanding that healing can come in forms other than just healing of the body. Healing of the spirit can be equally if not more important, and my idea of what is good for someone may be totally off.

I don't discount more specific intecessory prayer at all -- I know that if my kid had cancer, I would pray hard for that cancer to be gone. (And I have seen that happen in others.) But I think I would struggle to situate that prayer in a larger context of conversation like I've described.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

But if intercessory prayer doesn't really have an effect then again, why bother? And if it does, how DO we conscience only praying for specific people at any given time?

I seem to recall that C.S. Lewis wrote in Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer something to the effect that his prayer list just kept getting longer and longer, because once he put someone on it, he couldn't bear to take them off.

He also said in that book: "It's so much easier to pray for a bore than to go and see one." Don't know if you'd find the book useful or not. I did.

This part of prayer doesn't confuse me so much, although I see it more as self-talk ultimately at this moment. It's more the intercession, the 'please help _____' that I'm struggling with.

Aside from other values, I think at least part of the value for intercession is that it reinforces, for me, that it's not all about me and my needs. It brings a consciousness of the needs of others and need to be in community with others. (See CSL quote above.) When the prayer is a conversation, then one might hear the answer to "please help ____" as "I can and will, through you. I need you to ______."

FWIW.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I've been letting this one perculate for a few days. I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I tend to think a proper answer may turn on what is meant by "prayer" and what is mean by "work."

I think too often, people think of prayer as asking for things, whether for ourselves or others. This may be okay as far as it goes, but if one isn't careful, it turns God into Santa Claus and prayer into a wish list. If I got what I wished for, it worked; if I didn't, it didn't. I fall into this trap myself sometimes.

But I think a better understanding sees prayer as conversation, the goal of which is deeper relationship with God and with others. Conversation, of course, involved talking and listening. Intercessory prayer in such a context "works" not only if the thing prayed for happens (say, cure from cancer), but also if the prayer produces a change in me and my understanding of how I need to relate to the person for whom I'm praying, a change in that person or a change in my understanding of how the prayer is being answered.

I know that in my own prayers, I try to remember to pray for all who suffer, including those known to me. I also have a tendency not to get too specific -- I tend to pray, say, for healing and comfort and peace and good, with an understanding that healing can come in forms other than just healing of the body. Healing of the spirit can be equally if not more important, and my idea of what is good for someone may be totally off.

I don't discount more specific intecessory prayer at all -- I know that if my kid had cancer, I would pray hard for that cancer to be gone. (And I have seen that happen in others.) But I think I would struggle to situate that prayer in a larger context of conversation like I've described.


I seem to recall that C.S. Lewis wrote in Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer something to the effect that his prayer list just kept getting longer and longer, because once he put someone on it, he couldn't bear to take them off.

He also said in that book: "It's so much easier to pray for a bore than to go and see one." Don't know if you'd find the book useful or not. I did.

Aside from other values, I think at least part of the value for intercession is that it reinforces, for me, that it's not all about me and my needs. It brings a consciousness of the needs of others and need to be in community with others. (See CSL quote above.) When the prayer is a conversation, then one might hear the answer to "please help ____" as "I can and will, through you. I need you to ______."

FWIW.

I'm going to look into the CS Lewis book, however I guess I'm still left with this thought process - many types of intercessionary prayer are simply... "doing it wrong" so to speak. But for those other types of prayer, and "correct" intercessionary prayer, if prayer is a conversation, then what is the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing?

None of the explanations I can come up with work, the only one that's passable for being utterly unprovable is that there's something 'wrong' with the person praying, but it's a shifting standard. And while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I'm just not any closer to finding answers.

/yeah this is all about me.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm going to look into the CS Lewis book, however I guess I'm still left with this thought process - many types of intercessionary prayer are simply... "doing it wrong" so to speak. But for those other types of prayer, and "correct" intercessionary prayer, if prayer is a conversation, then what is the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing?

None of the explanations I can come up with work, the only one that's passable for being utterly unprovable is that there's something 'wrong' with the person praying, but it's a shifting standard. And while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I'm just not any closer to finding answers.

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.

/yeah this is all about me.

And that's okay.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.

That was my thought when I first read the question as well. Sometimes we miss the response/answer or don't interpret it as the response/answer. Like in the movie Signs.. do you believe in Signs or Coincidence?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AGDee

That was my thought when I first read the question as well. Sometimes we miss the response/answer or don't interpret it as the response/answer. Like in the movie Signs.. do you believe in Signs or Coincidence?

Coincidence. If anyone's going to bother to send a sign, it's going to be obvious and not my brain trying to make patterns out of random occurrences which is something our brain is proven to do.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.



And that's okay.

While I understand what you're saying there's no way for me to... accept it. If that makes any sense. I know what you mean, but I don't believe it.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I think too often, people think of prayer as asking for things, whether for ourselves or others. This may be okay as far as it goes, but if one isn't careful, it turns God into Santa Claus and prayer into a wish list. If I got what I wished for, it worked; if I didn't, it didn't. I fall into this trap myself sometimes.

I read an article calling this "blowing holy wishes to God". I found that so interesting, because once you agree to pray for someone/something, you do tend to get into this. For me, I consider prayer a form of communion with the Lord, so I say, "you know my heart, and for all I want to pray," before I start.

As for the Baptist issue, oy. It's gotten to the point with MOST Protestant churches that you need to work on a church to church basis. There are certain elements that most hold true (ie: the issues of transfiguation, Calvinism, etc). Most Baptist churches I've attended don't believe in either.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by honeychile

.
. . . It's gotten to the point with MOST Protestant churches that you need to work on a church to church basis. There are certain elements that most hold true (ie: the issues of transfiguation, Calvinism, etc). Most Baptist churches I've attended don't believe in either.

The Gospels according to Mark, Matthew and Luke all include accounts of the transfiguration. (For the last 100 - 150 years at least, Biblical scholarship has recognized that Mark, Matthew and Luke have very close literary resemblances. Probably the dominant -- but not the only -- scholarly view nowadays is that Matthew and Luke each used Mark as a source, sometimes word for word, sometimes with a few changes.) See for example the relevant texts (in English translation) at

http://www.rockhay.org/sermons/texts...figuration.htm

Exactly how a church would interpret / teach about the transfiguration story/stories probably does vary. Some might say "literally true," others, "highly symbolic of ___ (something)_____; probably never really happened ."

Not to mention what individual Christians might believe about it.

I'm surprised that the Baptist churches you've attended don't "believe in" it (in some fashion) but that probably says more about my unfamiliarity with Baptist theology than it does about the actual theology or Biblical interpretation.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by exlurker

Gospels according to Mark, Matthew and Luke all include accounts of the transfiguration. . . .

Exactly how a church would interpret / teach about the transfiguration story/stories probably does vary. Some might say "literally true," others, "highly symbolic of ___ (something)_____; probably never really happened ."

Not to mention what individual Christians might believe about it.

I'm surprised that the Baptist churches you've attended don't "believe in" it (in some fashion) but that probably says more about my unfamiliarity with Baptist theology than it does about the actual theology or Biblical interpretation.

When I read that, I wondered if she meant transubstantiation, not transfiguration.

Granted, I don't know of any Protestant churches that believe in transubstantiation (except for some Anglicans who might or not might consider themselves Protestant), but some other groups -- Lutherans, Presbyterians/Reformed and others -- hold views that to some Baptists I know look a lot like transubstantiation.

[Drolefille]

^^ The general consensus if I actually recall my theology class is that Matt and Luke use Mark and unknown "Q" as sources. Hence similarities between Matt and Luke that don't come from Mark.

[exlurker]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

^^ The general consensus if I actually recall my theology class is that Matt and Luke use Mark and unknown "Q" as sources. Hence similarities between Matt and Luke that don't come from Mark.

Yup, that's what I learned, too.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Hey SWTX I got a question for you. Do you think the Anglican Use parishes will join the new Ordinate or stay as they are in whichever diocese they are part of?

[SWTXBelle]

Joining the new Ordinate - that's certainly what OLOW is going to do. I know we're having some sort of Anglican Use convention, when I imagine we'll find out more details. Our rector made a point of encouraging us to give to our diocesean fund even though we will be leaving the Diocese of Galveston-Houston because 1.) we are still a part of the diocese for now and 2.) geographically we want them to succeed in their mission(s).

[Psi U MC Vito]

Hmm I just looked and noticed that I have four prayer books. Is it possible to be a liturgy addict?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Hmm I just looked and noticed that I have four prayer books. Is it possible to be a liturgy addict?

Heh. I have at least 75 prayer books/service books/liturgical books/hymnals of many stripes -- Presbyterian, Reformed, Episcopal/Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Orthodox, Baptist, Moravian, even Mormon. Bought another (Lutheran) today at a used bookstore. It is an addiction.

As for the new translation of the Mass, it is (apparently, and for the most part) closer to the Latin, but it is very clumsy English at times. And there has been quite a discussion going on over at Ship of Fools over whether "who for us men and our salvation" is the best English translation of "qui propter nos homines et nostram salutem."