The Medical Thread

[BigRedBeta]

4 or 5 years to get your bachelor's degree. During this time you'll need to take 1 year of biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and likely college math (including calc). You'll also need clinical experience with patients (either through volunteering or shadowing a physician), campus involvement, and probably some type of research activities. You'll also need to score well on the MCAT. Then apply.

IF you get accepted, med school is 4 years - the first two being basic sciences like anatomy, physiology and pathology, then take Step 1 of the USMLE. The third and fourth years are done in the clinics and you learn how to actually take care of patients. During the end of third year/beginning of fourth year, you'll hopefully narrow down a specialty choice (such as pediatrics or surgery or radiology), apply to residency programs in those fields, interview and then submit a list which has the programs ranked in order of your preference. You get matched with a residency program, then residency lasts for 3-7 years depending on what specialty to you enter and if you decide to pursue extra training through a fellowship to become a sub-specialist (eg cardiologist).


Also, I'm not a doctor...yet: 81 days and counting though!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

4 or 5 years to get your bachelor's degree. During this time you'll need to take 1 year of biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, physics and likely college math (including calc). You'll also need clinical experience with patients (either through volunteering or shadowing a physician), campus involvement, and probably some type of research activities. You'll also need to score well on the MCAT. Then apply.

IF you get accepted, med school is 4 years - the first two being basic sciences like anatomy, physiology and pathology, then take Step 1 of the USMLE. The third and fourth years are done in the clinics and you learn how to actually take care of patients. During the end of third year/beginning of fourth year, you'll hopefully narrow down a specialty choice (such as pediatrics or surgery or radiology), apply to residency programs in those fields, interview and then submit a list which has the programs ranked in order of your preference. You get matched with a residency program, then residency lasts for 3-7 years depending on what specialty to you enter and if you decide to pursue extra training through a fellowship to become a sub-specialist (eg cardiologist).


Also, I'm not a doctor...yet: 81 days and counting though!

When's Match Day?

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

Also, I'm not a doctor...yet: 81 days and counting though!

I can't wait until the day that I can say/type this.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I can't wait until the day that I can say/type this.

You'll get there!!! You have to get this T-shirt that says "Real Doctors See All Kinds of Patients" with all the animals on there...

Have you decided what kind of animals you want to work on? Large animal vet, home pets, fish/frogs/reptiles? Do you decide now? I forget if you do or not...

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

You'll get there!!! You have to get this T-shirt that says "Real Doctors See All Kinds of Patients" with all the animals on there...

Have you decided what kind of animals you want to work on? Large animal vet, home pets, fish/frogs/reptiles? Do you decide now? I forget if you do or not...

I didn't know there was a t-shirt like that.

Actually, I want to work with small animals. I can decide now, but I really don't need to make a decision until I'm close to or done with the classroom work. Depending on the school, some are 2 years classroom work, 2 years clinicals. My school is 2 and a half years classroom work, a year and half clinicals. Either way, it's still 4 years. I start my clinicals after my 1st semester of my 3rd year which is coming up soon. I knew what kind of animals I wanted to work with before I got into vet school, the only change I've made since then is my decision to go into a specialty. So, I'll have another 4 years after I graduate.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I didn't know there was a t-shirt like that.

Actually, I want to work with small animals. I can decide now, but I really don't need to make a decision until I'm close to or done with the classroom work. Depending on the school, some are 2 years classroom work, 2 years clinicals. My school is 2 and a half years classroom work, a year and half clinicals. Either way, it's still 4 years. I start my clinicals after my 1st semester of my 3rd year which is coming up soon. I knew what kind of animals I wanted to work with before I got into vet school, the only change I've made since then is my decision to go into a specialty. So, I'll have another 4 years after I graduate.

Small like guinea pigs? I'll try to find out how to do that... I believe my husband wrote a SOP for someone who does research on them...

And it does not seem lab animal vet for rodents and others is not going to "drastically change" for academia in the near future. It may be not as many animals, but it will still exist for sometime...

So if you go that route, rather than private practice, remember, a lot of path and utter memorization... The ACLAM Diplomate status is like WOW!!!

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

Also, I'm not a doctor...yet: 81 days and counting though!

You are a doctor by the way you speak!!!

You know your differentials, you've done your rounds and you are getting ready for your residencies!!! Yeah, pretty much, it is all a matter of that final USMLE, general board and license!

I am proud of your accomplishment... Not anybody can be a doctor!!!

[SigKapSweetie]

March 19th!

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

Because we're not socialists.

[Zephyrus]

Originally Posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu

Because we're not socialists.

I'm no political king, but what's that got to do with anything? Just make it free. It's already law that you have to be seen when you go to the emergency room rather you have the money or not, but then you still get a bill, and garnishment if you can't pay it. I didn't know Canada was a socialist country.

[BigRedBeta]

The Canadian government (and the governments in many other countries) pay for it. Tax money is used to fund payments to physicians.

As for how this came about, the reason why the US is dominated by private insurance goes back to World War II. Because of the restriction on wages in many industries (in an effort to make sure that all parts of the war effort had sufficient labor) companies couldn't lure new workers with higher salaries/hourly wages. In order to help with recruiting, they offered benefits packages which included things like health insurance. The practice became widespread and after the war when wage restrictions were lifted, benefits packages remained.

[BigRedBeta]

AKAMonet has given a slightly gloomier picture than I think is necessary, but I think her point that there's a lot that goes into becoming a physician is what really needs to be considered. It's true, not everyone has it. And I think some of the reasons why she personally didn't go through with the change reflect that there are personality aspects that need to fit - especially in her case where she's done a lot of basic science research and to "sell" herself to a med school admissions committee would likely mean explaining her need for patient interaction and a desire that goes far enough to change from one scientific field to another. Coming from a music background - that's probably an easier sell.

The anatomy, the knot tying, the creation of differential diagnoses (what are all the possible reasons a person could have chest pain), the business of medicine stuff, those are all things that you'll learn in medical school. I don't think it's necessary for any potential med school applicant to feel like they need those things before starting.

What does matter is work ethic, perseverance and being able to interact with people. It helps if you're outgoing, naturally intelligent, and not a whiner.

As for the involvement on campus remark I made earlier. As a non-trad applicant, you'd be judged by what you've done recently - I didn't mean it say that they would look at your campus record. The bare bones essentials you'd need would be some sort of volunteering - preferably in a patient related area (though it doesn't have to be overnight, I volunteered from 10am to 1pm every Tuesday for 6 months). And you also need some sort of doctor interactions - which usually takes the form of shadowing several different ones. Basically adcoms want to see that you've spent time with patients and doctors and have at least some idea of what you're getting yourself into. Like AKA_Monet suggested though, if you did music in hospital experiences (even without any sort of formal review/research process) that could be a very powerful, very easy to sell activity.

As far as the salary and debt issues. Keep in mind it's a salary, it's not per hour wages. And that is during residency - you have those letters MD behind your name, but you're not eligible to become board certified until after you've finished your residency and in most states you cannot practice on your own until after you've completed at least one year of post-grad training (more and more completing a full residency is becoming the requirement to get your license to practice). Residents are capped at working 80 hours a week, though it's very program dependent and actually most of the time you won't be working 80 hours...but 60+ hours a week is a given. And it's just assumed that you're going to be working 6 days a week. Overnight shifts usually occur between every 4th to every 6th night - and you'll have been at the hospital since the morning already. Residents are not allowed to work more than 30 consecutive hours. Think about that: they had to put national rules in place (in 2003) to prevent working more than this. However, as many older doctors love to point out, there are no work hour limits once you're done with residency.

As far as loans go...most residents defer them until after residency, so that interest accumulates for another three to seven years. After that they'll refinance, then start paying them off...and I've had some friends in the financial field tell me it's actually a smart decision to take as long as possible to pay off that debt (not sure if I buy that idea quite yet).

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

AKAMonet has given a slightly gloomier picture than I think is necessary, but I think her point that there's a lot that goes into becoming a physician is what really needs to be considered. It's true, not everyone has it. And I think some of the reasons why she personally didn't go through with the change reflect that there are personality aspects that need to fit - especially in her case where she's done a lot of basic science research and to "sell" herself to a med school admissions committee would likely mean explaining her need for patient interaction and a desire that goes far enough to change from one scientific field to another.

What does matter is work ethic, perseverance and being able to interact with people. It helps if you're outgoing, naturally intelligent, and not a whiner.

Thanks... I am probably too much of whiner... LOL... I really dislike bulk reading in one set. I do know that is done by plenty of med students.

[Zephyrus]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

To reiterate what Dr. BigRedBeta said... He would know since he is a physician and I am just a research scientist with Ph.D...

About the money, IMHO, the amount of money you make no way compares to the amount information you must know and retain, and the work that you must do rapidly...

When I had a passing fancy to switch my career to become a physician, I was told by the admissions director of the medical school, someone who DOES NOT speak to ANY APPLYING students, that I needed to read and know the front pages of the top journals in medicine, chiefly JAMA, NEJM and a few others, for the 3 years...

The reason is that these journals tell you the business of medicine...

What I also found is you really need to know anatomy, a course I NEVER took during college or in grad school. While I have done all kinds of rodent anatomy and partial surgical procedures, along with ultrasound imaging, MRI, NMR and other imaging techniques on mice, the fact is, I cannot tie knots, hands are too shaky... Go figure... So, yeah, while surgery might not be my thing, I also do not like "on the spot" differentials. And you kinna have to love that when you go on rounds and reasoning through it logically is not my strong suit, IMHO.

Music eh? Why music, just asking?

It is known in the Naturopathic Doctorates (ND), that music, holistically can destress some people. Typically, westernized medicine did not touch something that did "not have a drug" attached to it... As more patients flood the overwhelmed health care system without anything wrong with them than that the patient perceives, many mainstream health systems are referring patients to alternatives, such as "Mindfulness", that inherently activates certain areas in the brain to ease, pain, smoking cessation, hypnotherapy, etc. Certain types of music, namely that which activates the Delta waves in the brain, is very healing. Think Buddhist Monks.

I think in the next few years we will see an "amalgamation" of diverse healing fields. MD's are good because if the ailment is truly an infection or a physical accident, heart attack, stroke or cancer, ICU, palliative care, etc. they can come in there and stabilize the situation, get some stuff going into a routine, then transfer. The problem I have seen and experienced IMHO, is that most healthcare providers are tapped out, they have less than 7 minutes per patient, write up some many things in charts, it is difficult, so it MUST be something you'd love to do and it cannot be about money. Because like Dr. Big said, this is a 80 hrs+++++ job... There will be times you are awake for more than some odd hours...

The other fields as long as they are not "wack jobs" or "cooky" or "snake oil salesman", if they are more about rigorous standards that is required for various other clinical providers, can be very beneficial--i.e. like accupuncture, mindfulness meditation, some homeopathic and herbal remedies, etc.

Also, I know quite a few physicians flipping over to health and wellness coaching for medical treatment adherence. As many times, I have run health forums in my city, there is that frustration I have heard from physicians about how patients fail to follow the prescribed treatment for whatever reason. Hayle, with my experiences as a dental assistant, do I have stories of patient insanity...

But, it is about providing a humane amount of health, and a dignified death. And that is the mindset you need to have when you go medicine, IMHO.

I chose music because it's what I'm intersted in doing for a living, if I'm successful at it. I'm only on this thread asking questions about your professions, because this would be a plan B for me if plan A (music) doesn't work out.

Think Buddhist Monk? wtf?

I see what you mean about getting involved. No, I've never worked at a hospital before, so I don't have that kind of experience.

Most of, if not all of the things you guys are talking about I'm not familiar with. I don't know any of the terminology so a lot of the things that are mentioned are completely foreign to me. I've read some of the science books and magazines you're referring to. I've heard of some of the biotech companies too. I would even consider that as an option. The bottom line is most music majors very rarely end up using their major after graduation, so I'm asking about your professions just incase. I don't think the work hours would really phase me. I've pulled double shifts where I work now, and learning the material is just something that I would have to get used to.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I know you directed this to Dr. BRB and HE is can provided you more with direct answers on med school financing.

As far as campus involvement, he means, all your extracurricular activities or community service needs to be something that would make the eyes of admissions boards widen...

You need to have volunteered, extensively, in the hospital. Not just at the "volunteers desk" or "gift shop", but if you can, carting the human urine samples around from the hospital rooms for laboratory testing at 1 AM in the morning... I know quite a few people who have done that... In fact I know a few people getting 36's on their MCATs with all that experience and STILL DO NOT get into med school... So, let me tell you, they get 1000s of applications per year for maybe 300 slots, and these days, you might be competing against Ph.D. with published Science/Nature (journals) articles in molecular cardiology, two post doctoral positions, with references from Chiefs of Medicine, Surgeon Generals and Nobel Laureates who are MD/Ph.D.'s....

That is your competition... So, what is your game plan?

The fact is you have got to know your music interests inherently--that means music theory. You need to be able to play several instruments. Then you need to apply it to your disease du Jour, i.e. kids with non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma, etc. Be creative, because that is what perks up med school admins...

I don't have a game plan as of yet. I'm still going to concentrate on music and I'll just go from there. What does music have to do with the study of medicine? You're telling me I would have to apply my music to my disease du jour??? Is this some kind joke? Yeah, I feel pretty dumb asking a message board about medical school, but I'm serious, the thread is here, and you guys are real people in the field so why not ask? I'm sure it is tough to get in, but sht happens. I'm sure there are a lot of people that got in that didn't think they would get in with very little experience to go with it.

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

AKAMonet has given a slightly gloomier picture than I think is necessary, but I think her point that there's a lot that goes into becoming a physician is what really needs to be considered. It's true, not everyone has it. And I think some of the reasons why she personally didn't go through with the change reflect that there are personality aspects that need to fit - especially in her case where she's done a lot of basic science research and to "sell" herself to a med school admissions committee would likely mean explaining her need for patient interaction and a desire that goes far enough to change from one scientific field to another. Coming from a music background - that's probably an easier sell.

The anatomy, the knot tying, the creation of differential diagnoses (what are all the possible reasons a person could have chest pain), the business of medicine stuff, those are all things that you'll learn in medical school. I don't think it's necessary for any potential med school applicant to feel like they need those things before starting.

What does matter is work ethic, perseverance and being able to interact with people. It helps if you're outgoing, naturally intelligent, and not a whiner.

As for the involvement on campus remark I made earlier. As a non-trad applicant, you'd be judged by what you've done recently - I didn't mean it say that they would look at your campus record. The bare bones essentials you'd need would be some sort of volunteering - preferably in a patient related area (though it doesn't have to be overnight, I volunteered from 10am to 1pm every Tuesday for 6 months). And you also need some sort of doctor interactions - which usually takes the form of shadowing several different ones. Basically adcoms want to see that you've spent time with patients and doctors and have at least some idea of what you're getting yourself into. Like AKA_Monet suggested though, if you did music in hospital experiences (even without any sort of formal review/research process) that could be a very powerful, very easy to sell activity.

As far as the salary and debt issues. Keep in mind it's a salary, it's not per hour wages. And that is during residency - you have those letters MD behind your name, but you're not eligible to become board certified until after you've finished your residency and in most states you cannot practice on your own until after you've completed at least one year of post-grad training (more and more completing a full residency is becoming the requirement to get your license to practice). Residents are capped at working 80 hours a week, though it's very program dependent and actually most of the time you won't be working 80 hours...but 60+ hours a week is a given. And it's just assumed that you're going to be working 6 days a week. Overnight shifts usually occur between every 4th to every 6th night - and you'll have been at the hospital since the morning already. Residents are not allowed to work more than 30 consecutive hours. Think about that: they had to put national rules in place (in 2003) to prevent working more than this. However, as many older doctors love to point out, there are no work hour limits once you're done with residency.

As far as loans go...most residents defer them until after residency, so that interest accumulates for another three to seven years. After that they'll refinance, then start paying them off...and I've had some friends in the financial field tell me it's actually a smart decision to take as long as possible to pay off that debt (not sure if I buy that idea quite yet).

I appreciate the info. I'll keep this in mind. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I think I'm naturally intelligent to some degree. If the study of music doesn't work out for me, it may not necessarily be the medical field as an option. I would even look at some of the biotech companies I read about. I would simply be looking for a way out of dead end jobs, which a lot of music majors end up doing if they don't make it in the music industry.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Zephyrus

I appreciate the info. I'll keep this in mind. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I think I'm naturally intelligent to some degree. If the study of music doesn't work out for me, it may not necessarily be the medical field as an option. I would even look at some of the biotech companies I read about. I would simply be looking for a way out of dead end jobs, which a lot of music majors end up doing if they don't make it in the music industry.

I'm not a med student, so I'll leave the nuts and bolts to the MDs (like AOPi Angel) and MDs to be like BigRedBeta.

That said, I don't know that "looking for a way out of dead end jobs" is necessarily the best reason to go to medical school. It's the most intense schooling program out there, and it exhausts even those who are passionate about becoming doctors.
I personally wouldn't go for it unless I was absolutely, positively, 110% sure I wanted to be an MD.