Pan-Hellenic - Page 7

Senusret I · #91 12-02-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irishpipes
This post is extremely offensive. I am white, and my familiy's history has zero superiority or power in it. My Irish family starved at the hands of the English, was persecuted for their religious beliefs, and ultimately had little choice but to leave their beloved native land. My German family came here during the rise of Nazism, and my Grandmother spoke of having nothing to eat but old bread spread with lard.

Yes, whites do come from a variety of different nationalities, but so do black people. I have several friends who are from Nigeria, another from Uganda, and yet another from St. Lucia. Their family histories are completely different. To lump them all together by skin color would be ignorant.

Also, I couldn't get that link to work, so if I misinterpreted your post by missing what you linked, I apologize,.

I wonder if I'm the only one who sees that you actually agreed with what she said.

In your case, it's not your whiteness that you are proud of, it is your family and their accomplishments -- as she said.

DST4A00 · #92 12-02-2005, 12:21 PM

it saddens me that this issue of race and class in this country has gotten so bad that White/Caucasian people can't even express a love and honor of their race without being labled racist.

TO HAVE PRIDE IN YOUR RACE IS NOT HATING ALL OTHER RACES

Just except the fact that some of your ancestors *ucked up. Hell, we all gots peeps in our history that wasn't quite right, ya know. But it was your/our ANCESTORS that did it...forgive, just don't forget so we won't have any repeats. Also, change the way it is today.

************************************************** **
okay rant over, whew

I said all of this to say, if your org is historically white, be historically white. It seems like you all are trying to downplay that fact because of the reason your org was historically white, mainly it's exclusionary policies. Most of these policies had to do with the time period in which they were formed and most were just plain racism, but whatever the reason saying it's historically white shouldn't be a point of shame.

DEAL WITH IT, BUILD A BRIDGE AND GET OVER IT!

ok now I'm done

irishpipes · #93 12-02-2005, 12:21 PM

In the beginning of her post she states that the entire history of whiteness cannot be separated from superiority and power. That is untrue, and that is what I took issue with.

She then implies that when white nationalities are lumped together it becomes a source of shame. I replied that people don't seem to have a problem lumping together people of different backgrounds who are black.

AXO Alum · #94 12-02-2005, 12:22 PM

An observation as I have seen several instances of this in this thread:

When you use black (to designate a group) then you use white (to designate a group) -- when you use African American (to designate a group) then you use Caucasian (to designate a group). You should not say African American for one & White for another in designation, nor should you say Caucasian for one & Black for another in designation.

As for the posts - this is as usual the ridiculous train wreck that always follows any topic where skin color is brought up. I am seriously WTH?!

that people believe someone can not separate the color of their skin from the need to have power & dominate others. Also, as for the % of minorities in GLO's - any GLO - that is not controlled by the GLO itself. You cannot make people of certain heritage, skin color, sexual preference, what have you sign up to join an organization. The people that come & express interest, are the ones from which the members make their selection. You can't offer someone an invitation who hasn't come to any events or shown interest in the group. We are not all blonde haired & blue eyed - there are all different people in every GLO - different races, creeds, religions, sexual orientations, etc. etc. Why does skin color become the only litmus test for the diversity of an organization?

OTW - we need avatars so you can post a picture of your FEMALE NON-WHITE self beside every post!!

OPhiARen3 · #95 12-02-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Little E
I like how you said this. I was trying to formulate a response and it wasn't working.

The reality is that I am a white American. I have Irish, Scottish and English heritage. While I did spend 6 months living there, I'm hardly British or Irish, I really am just a white American. I'm not evil, I don't think whites should rule the world, nor do I think it should be ruled by Asians, Blacks or Latinos. This country focus' on race so much we forget that there are VERY few people who are of one ethinic orgin. People travel, they have sex. That is how the world works.

OPhiARen3- when you tell people they can't be proud of being 'white' because it is inherently racisit, at a level you are telling people to deny who they are. You identify me as white, I identify me as white, but you just said white is bad. That frustrates me. Why can't we embrace ourselves and accept each other?

I don't think, looking at the development of whiteness and the priviledge that is associated with it, that it is something that should be embraced. I honestly feel that the world would be a better place if we could all just move past whiteness. I'm not saying that's the easiest thing to do, and I certainly don't have an easy answer of how to do it, but it's how I feel and it's something that I am committed to.

Race isn't inherent; it's a social construct. As the people who make up society, we do play some role in choosing to continue or discontinue racial ideologies. If we can deconstruct white, that would be the first step toward breaking down so many barriers. Society defines me as white, and therefore associates me with certain behaviors, etc. - that doesn't mean that I have to think of myself that way. People assume that they can say certain things around me, do certain things around me, whatever, because I have pale skin - but I don't have to go along with that, and I can choose to break those expectations. Those are the kinds of things I am talking about.

I don't know how much sense all that made, and I know this has gotten so horribly off topic ... if anyone really wants to talk more about this kind of stuff, it'd probably be better if you PM'd me, I don't know if the whole board wants to hear me go on about it (these are the things I focus on in school ...).

irishpipes · #96 12-02-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AXO Alum
An observation as I have seen several instances of this in this thread:

When you use black (to designate a group) then you use white (to designate a group) -- when you use African American (to designate a group) then you use Caucasian (to designate a group). You should not say African American for one & White for another in designation, nor should you say Caucasian for one & Black for another in designation.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't know when to use the term "African-American" or when to use the term "black." Most of my friends who have black skin are not African Americans, and do not like being called that. They describe themselves as "black." I guess other people must take offense to the description "black" - I don't know - just an observation.

MysticCat · #97 12-02-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Senusret I
I wonder if I'm the only one who sees that you actually agreed with what she said.

In your case, it's not your whiteness that you are proud of, it is your family and their accomplishments -- as she said.

no, it seemed the same to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Little E
OPhiARen3- when you tell people they can't be proud of being 'white' because it is inherently racisit, at a level you are telling people to deny who they are.

Maybe I misread what OPhiARen3 was saying, but I didn't take her to mean telling people to deny who they are at all. I read her as saying be proud of who you are.

I think she was trying to say this (she can certainly correct me if I'm wrong): historically the label white (or "white race"): has had no real meaning except "not black, aboriginal, etc." Basically, describing someone as "white" necessarily described them by saying what they weren't. I think she was saying that pride comes from heritage, not just from pigmintation. "Whites" cover a whole range of very different ethnicities -- Italian, Irish, Norwegian, historically Northen African and Middle Eastern and on and on and on. I think she was saying be proud of who you are and where you came from, but that "white" didn't necessarily describe that.

I think it can be a bit more nuanced, though. Race may indeed be a social construct, but social constructs can take on a reality. Like "white," "black" describes people of various ethnicities, but who, for the most part, share a common historical experience in this country. That shared historical experience gives some meaning to being "black" in this country that transcends whether one's ancestors came from Nigeria or Uganda. In some cases, this may be true of "whites" as well. I am a Southern white man, and I think that may give rise to a common historical experience that is not limited to nation of origin. The same may well be true elsewhere.

So what would I say? I am very proud of my Scottish, English, Welsh, Cornish, Dutch and Huguenaut heritage. I don't think of myself as being proud of being white. I'm not ashamed of it, I don't deny it -- it just seems to me like being proud of having green eyes.

But yet I am proud of being a Southern white, because the experience, good and bad, of being a white person in the South is part of who I am. I fully recognize the baggage that carries and what some, including some of my ancestors did. But while I don't deny history, I don't deny my pride either, because that is part of who I am. Does the distinction make any sense?

But, and this is a big but . . . I would be very careful of how I express that pride, if for no other reason than the phrase "white pride" carries connotations of the Klan and of Nazism with which I definitely do not want to be associated.

AlphaFrog · #98 12-02-2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MysticCat81
no, it seemed the same to me.

Maybe I misread what OPhiARen3 was saying, but I didn't take her to mean telling people to deny who they are at all. I read her as saying be proud of who you are.

I think she was trying to say this (she can certainly correct me if I'm wrong): historically the label white (or "white race"): has had no real meaning except "not black, aboriginal, etc." Basically, describing someone as "white" necessarily described them by saying what they weren't. I think she was saying that pride comes from heritage, not just from pigmintation. "Whites" cover a whole range of very different ethnicities -- Italian, Irish, Norwegian, historically Northen African and Middle Eastern and on and on and on. I think she was saying be proud of who you are and where you came from, but that "white" didn't necessarily describe that.

I think it can be a bit more nuanced, though. Race may indeed be a social construct, but social constructs can take on a reality. Like "white," "black" describes people of various ethnicities, but who, for the most part, share a common historical experience in this country. In some cases, that may be true of "whites" as well. I am a Southern white man, and I think that may give rise to a common historical experience that is not limited to nation of origin. The same may well be true elsewhere.

So what would I say? I am very proud of my Scottish, English, Welsh, Cornish, Dutch and Huguenaut heritage. I don't think of myself as being proud of being white. I'm not ashamed of it, I don't deny it -- it just seems to me like being proud of having green eyes.

But yet I am proud of being a Southern white, because the experience, good and bad, of being a white person in the South is part of who I am. I fully recognize the baggage that carries and what some, including some of my ancestors did. But while I don't deny history don't deny my pride either, because that is part of who I am. Does the distinction make any sense?

But, and this is a big but . . . I would be very careful of how I express that pride, if for no other reason than the phrase "white pride" carries connotations of the Klan and of Nazism with which I definitely do not want to be associated.

All hail the Sinfonian.

Seriously, this is why I love Phi Mu Alpha!

DST4A00 · #99 12-02-2005, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sigmadiva
I can only speak for myself but when I hear/read NPC sororities referred to as white or historically white I feel like a person might as well say I'm a racist and member of the KKK. Yes, there was a time when the NPC sororities were all white. It's a fact.

Why? No one has said you (White people in general) are racist. Don't feel bad or guilty because of who you are. I don't. There are Black people who I feel do not represent Blacks well, such as the welfare moms and a few of the 'gangsta' rappers, but I am not any less proud to be Black, or Negro, as it says on my birth certificate, because of them.

I had to stop you there.
IT SAYS NEGRO ON YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE

OPhiARen3 · #**100** 12-02-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MysticCat81

Maybe I misread what OPhiARen3 was saying, but I didn't take her to mean telling people to deny who they are at all. I read her as saying be proud of who you are.

Yes - I think you should be proud of your heritage based on your culture, nationality, family, etc. - but not your skin color. 'White' is not, and should not, be an ethnicity. That kind of thinking gets into some messed up stuff - it's the kind of ideology that you see with white supremacist hate groups.

I think she was trying to say this (she can certainly correct me if I'm wrong): historically the label white (or "white race"): has had no real meaning except "not black, aboriginal, etc." Basically, describing someone as "white" necessarily described them by saying what they weren't. I think she was saying that pride comes from heritage, not just from pigmintation. "Whites" cover a whole range of very different ethnicities -- Italian, Irish, Norwegian, historically Northen African and Middle Eastern and on and on and on. I think she was saying be proud of who you are and where you came from, but that "white" didn't necessarily describe that.

Exactly

I think it can be a bit more nuanced, though. Race may indeed be a social construct, but social constructs can take on a reality. Like "white," "black" describes people of various ethnicities, but who, for the most part, share a common historical experience in this country. That shared historical experience gives some meaning to being "black" in this country that transcends whether one's ancestors came from Nigeria or Uganda. In some cases, this may be true of "whites" as well. I am a Southern white man, and I think that may give rise to a common historical experience that is not limited to nation of origin. The same may well be true elsewhere.

I definitely agree that social constructs are real - I just feel that it's important that we realize they are socially constructed, that we as a society do have control over their future. And while some cultures have emerged based around skin color (I am Southern as well - I have definitely seen this in full force), we choose whether or not we want to continue these cultures.

So what would I say? I am very proud of my Scottish, English, Welsh, Cornish, Dutch and Huguenaut heritage. I don't think of myself as being proud of being white. I'm not ashamed of it, I don't deny it -- it just seems to me like being proud of having green eyes.

But yet I am proud of being a Southern white, because the experience, good and bad, of being a white person in the South is part of who I am. I fully recognize the baggage that carries and what some, including some of my ancestors did. But while I don't deny history, I don't deny my pride either, because that is part of who I am. Does the distinction make any sense?

But, and this is a big but . . . I would be very careful of how I express that pride, if for no other reason than the phrase "white pride" carries connotations of the Klan and of Nazism with which I definitely do not want to be associated.

Agreed. I do not deny that, according to sociohistorical norms, I am white. I fully accept my history and all of the implications of my skin color. But I refuse to act on my skin color and try to refuse to the privileges of that I get for it when I can.

sigmadiva · #**101** 12-02-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DST4A00
I had to stop you there.
IT SAYS NEGRO ON YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE

YES!!!!

For the box where it says 'Race, Mother' my mother is classified as Negro. For the box where it says 'Race, Father' my father is classified as Negro. For the box where it says 'Race, Child' I am classified as Negro.

For my granparents, they were classified as 'Colored'.

My maternal grandfather attended Colored High School of Houston in the 19-teens.

GtownGirl98 · #**102** 12-02-2005, 01:45 PM

I am so sorry... I will write more, but I am so sorry.

AlphaFrog · #**103** 12-02-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GtownGirl98
I am so sorry... I will write more, but I am so sorry.

You never know what can of worms you're opening when you start a thread.

PM_Mama00 · #**104** 12-02-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GtownGirl98
I am so sorry... I will write more, but I am so sorry.

Don't be sorry. This is the first time I've ever seen a thread turn into a racial discussion.... without any name-calling! People are representing their ideas and opinions and no one has come in (yet) with name-calling. (ok besides the knocking heads in the beginning of the thread but maybe some of you will get what I mean)

gpb1874 · #**105** 12-02-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GtownGirl98
I am so sorry... I will write more, but I am so sorry.

don't be sorry. this thread has been interesting.

alphafrog is right. you can never predict what will happen and you didn't do anything on purpose to provoke this. you asked an honest question and it went off on a tangent.