Abortion Tour?

[sueali]

Originally posted by valkyrie
You're right. Murder is murder and killing is killing. You've inspired me -- you might not know this, but I'm a strict vegetarian. I think eating meat is morally wrong and I feel that animals are alive. I really should get out there and start lobbying for laws that prohibit anyone else from eating meat because murder is murder and killing is killing, and nobody should be allowed to kill animals and eat them. Innocent animals are still eligible for death, just because you want something tasty for dinner. Well, I'm not going to stand for it any longer!

Well said. I'll help you lobby, I'm a strict vegetarian also. (I know your kidding)

[Rudey]

Originally posted by mu_agd
But that is only your religious grounds. Certain religions, like mine, think that abortion should be legal and up to the woman to decide if she wants one. While I know that won't change your opinion, my "religious grounds make a whole lot more sense than the reasons pro-lifers have."

What religion are you that believes abortion should be legal?

-Rudey

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
And Amanda you are lucky that DSTChaos is being so nice to you... She can be harsh...

Lies...all lies!!

I pick and choose which topics I'm harsh about.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by amanda6035
This is a few months old, but thought I'd share it with you all....

...as the intellectual capacity of our citizenry continues a downward spiral.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by amanda6035
People go to jail for murder, they get the death penalty in some cases. murder is murder, killing is killing.

Except in self-defense and times of war when even innocent civilians are killed for "the cause."

The contingencies and hypocrisies of our society are astounding. Hypocrisy is how wealthy old men in dark business suits are given the power to potentially control the reproductive systems of women.

In the end, I respect your opinion for what it is. The issue that many of us are having with your opinion is that the emotional charge is rooted in quite a bit of misinformation and exaggeration. Moral crusaders for various social issues often have that problem.

[mu_agd]

Originally posted by Rudey
What religion are you that believes abortion should be legal?

-Rudey

There is a movement in Reform Judiasm that says that it should be the woman's decision, especially when it concerns their health.

[Xylochick216]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Except in self-defense and times of war when even innocent civilians are killed for "the cause."

The contingencies and hypocrisies of our society are astounding. Hypocrisy is how wealthy old men in dark business suits are given the power to potentially control the reproductive systems of women.

Exactly. I was about to type, "What about the Americans who have killed people in war? Murder is murder and killing is killing, so should they all die? And should those who put them to death be put to death?"

[33girl]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
...as the intellectual capacity of our citizenry continues a downward spiral.

I must agree. Anyone who thinks an 8 months pregnant woman gets an abortion is nuts.

[Lil' Hannah]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Most of them are poor women/girls of color who cannot afford basic healthcare that are crack addicted prostituted strippers because they have no family structure to begin with at home...

I don't know that I'll be able to put this how I want to, but here goes...

I think many are aware that these women get abortions and even make them the "poster children" for women who get abortions. It's a lot easier to pass judgment on a woman who is already viewed as a burden to society than it is to judge a woman who looks just like you, like your next door neighbor, like your friend from church.

I wonder what those who oppose legal abortions think will happen to these women if abortion is made illegal. I certainly don't believe these women (or any other women for that matter) will stop having sex just because a legal abortion is no longer an option...I think women will still have abortions, albeit illegal ones. Abortions will happen regardless, but if they remain legal at least the mother's health won't be put in jeopardy.

[HelloKitty22]

Originally posted by Lil' Hannah
women will still have abortions, albeit illegal ones.

I think this is a really important point. Abortion was illegal once and it didn't keep women from having abortions it just made abortions more dangerous. Women who were wealthy could still get abortions. They went to Europe or to other countries for them. And women who were poor went to "doctors" who did back alley abortions in unsafe conditions. Desperation can make somebody do pretty risky stuff.
When my mother was in college a girl on her floor got pregnant. Her parents were relatively well off. They paid a GYN a lot of money to do an illegal abortion. She suffered a complication, one that today would be easily treatable, but because he was afraid of prosecution he didn't call an ambulance and she bled to death. Left with her dead body in the office, he freaked out and hacked up her body and tried to flush it down the toilet. He then left the country in an attempt to flee prosecution. She was 18 years old.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by valkyrie
You're right. Murder is murder and killing is killing. You've inspired me -- you might not know this, but I'm a strict vegetarian. I think eating meat is morally wrong and I feel that animals are alive. I really should get out there and start lobbying for laws that prohibit anyone else from eating meat because murder is murder and killing is killing, and nobody should be allowed to kill animals and eat them. Innocent animals are still eligible for death, just because you want something tasty for dinner. Well, I'm not going to stand for it any longer!

And cow farts are eating a hole in the ozone layer.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Let's not forget the level 3 sex offenders out there who like to have sex with little girls that are related to them... What I just said is not meant to be funny...

And Amanda you are lucky that DSTChaos is being so nice to you... She can be harsh...

But your argument is rather infantile. It is obvious you really do not know the demographics of women and girls that are getting abortions.

Most of them are not rich white girls who will ruin their modeleque figures who actually can afford the patch and jump around for the latest method of pregancy prevention... (And I won't even go into sexually transmitted infections...)

Most of them are poor women/girls of color who cannot afford basic healthcare that are crack addicted prostituted strippers because they have no family structure to begin with at home...

Usually 40-something year old grandma is taking care of them with 5 other grandchildren running rampant...

And since no one gives a rat's ass about a pregnant one-third black-asian-latino 12 year old incest rape victim, then either her baby gets born on the streets and thrown in the trash can, left at the hospital on very expensive neonatal support or just plain aborted to save money on taxes...

Just ask Bill Bennett on what he thinks about this concept...

Thank you. You're so right.

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, I spend a good deal of time with women who are in crisis or unplanned pregnancies. It becomes very easy to see how they got themselves into this situation, and in most cases, I find it very difficult to fault them. Rape and abuse are common. Amanda urges parents to take the responsibility of passing on birth control information to their teenagers, but this is not realistic in most families. The parents may not know any more than the children. The concept of the little teenage girl who chooses to have an abortion because she's too lazy to use birth control or because her boyfriend doesn't want to use a condom is a fallacy.

However, what I do is LISTEN. I meet these women, and I hear their stories, and I care. This is more than many of these women have recieved in their entire lives. And then I remind them that a baby isn't always a death sentence. At risk of sounding cliche- babies are miracles. Abortion and its emotional after effects can often be more stressful on someone's life than a child... I meet women every week who still carry the spiritual scars from abortions they had 15 years ago. And then, once we've talked, I give them real, tangible resources that would support them in their decision to choose life for their child (baby clothes, baby furniture, diapers, a referral to the WIC clinic and an OB/GYN).

And to me, that's how you do pro-life the right way. These stupid tours aren't winning any believers other than a few mentally insane religious zealots.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by 33girl
I must agree. Anyone who thinks an 8 months pregnant woman gets an abortion is nuts.

It makes for good political sattire.

[alum]

Terminating a pregnancy has been a woman's legal right since the early 70's.

We cannot go back to the dark ages. I certainly want my future daughters to have the same options I had for all of my adult life.

Being pro-choice isn't forcing one's views or actions on someone else. An abortion cannot be forced on anyone as a pregnancy could be if abortion wasn't illegal.

In recent edition of a national paper, there was an interesting article discussing 3 states (SD, ND and maybe Montana) discussing how there is 1 clinic in each of these states and the physicians have to flown in from out of state. People are having to tracel huge distances just to undergo a procedure.

[IIOA]

Originally posted by HelloKitty22
I think this is a really important point. Abortion was illegal once and it didn't keep women from having abortions it just made abortions more dangerous. Women who were wealthy could still get abortions. They went to Europe or to other countries for them. And women who were poor went to "doctors" who did back alley abortions in unsafe conditions. Desperation can make somebody do pretty risky stuff.
When my mother was in college a girl on her floor got pregnant. Her parents were relatively well off. They paid a GYN a lot of money to do an illegal abortion. She suffered a complication, one that today would be easily treatable, but because he was afraid of prosecution he didn't call an ambulance and she bled to death. Left with her dead body in the office, he freaked out and hacked up her body and tried to flush it down the toilet. He then left the country in an attempt to flee prosecution. She was 18 years old.

I hesitate to get involved in abortion debates because they rarely, if ever, go well. Nevertheless, I have two points.

First, part of the initial outcry in this particular thread was that anti-abortionist groups were using emotional arguments in the form of pictures of aborted babies.....er......fetuses. Yet isn't the above quoted statement not the same thing? In other words, if pro-abortionists can mention the horrors of back-alley abortions, etc, in efforts to support their argument, isn't this an appeal to emotion as well?

Second, legal abortions are not always safe, either. I have on my desk right now the December 1, 2005 New England Journal of Medicine, which has a case report of 4 women who died of fatal Toxic Shock Syndrome from the bacteria Clostridium sordillii after a medical abortion.

An 18-year-old, a 22-year-old, a 21-year-old, and a 34-year-old woman died within a week of receiving 200 mg of oral mifepristone + 800 mcg of vaginal misopristol.

So, I hope no one is laboring under the delusion that just because an abortion is "legal" that it is automatically safe. The tragedy of this NEJM case report is that eight, not four, lives were lost as a result of abortion.

*putting on flame-retardant gown in preparation for responses*