Mormon

[RxyChrldr]

Originally posted by IheartAphi

This will sound STUPID- But are mormons discouraged from kissing before marriage?

Nope I've actually found there is a lot of encouragement for people to date around casually a bunch (rather than getting too serious too young) until you find someone ideal for you. There are so many dances and functions set up for people to meet each other and date. There's a clear law of chastity that's preached of course, but kissing isn't thought of as obscene. I would feel completely comfortable getting a smooch from my honey in front of my bishop at church..no one's going to look down on ya for it

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
Actually, according to the Holy Bible, you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage, including kissing.

Citation please.

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
Actually, according to the Holy Bible, you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage, including kissing.

That all depends on how you interpret the bible.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Citation please.

Verses against lust and fornication:

(from the King James Version)

Romans 14:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and Make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I Corinthians 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

I Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctifiction, that ye should abstain from fornication.

HOWEVER, the previous verses are all inclusive...

Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So, if you cannot separate kissing from sexual lust, then it is forbidden. I know there's a difference between a hello/goodbye kiss (and, as I said, I'm a kisser myself) and a hot and heavy, ready to rip the clothes off kiss.

ETA: As we know, it's best to avoid the appearance of evil, so not kissing at all is safest - though not the most fun!

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
So, if you cannot separate kissing from sexual lust, then it is forbidden.

That's somewhat different from your earlier statement, which I at least read to say that kissing prior to marriage is per se forbidden in Bible because it is listful activity.

BTW, kissing is not fornication or adultery, even in King James English -- pregnancy can't result from kissing.

Nor arguing with you on the whole "avoding immorality" thing, but it just seemed to me to be quite an overstatement to say that pre-marital kissing is forbidden by the Bible, when it is not.

I think I'll go read Song of Solomon now.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
That's somewhat different from your earlier statement, which I at least read to say that kissing prior to marriage is per se forbidden in Bible because it is listful activity.

BTW, kissing is not fornication or adultery, even in King James English -- pregnancy can't result from kissing.

Nor arguing with you on the whole "avoding immorality" thing, but it just seemed to me to be quite an overstatement to say that pre-marital kissing is forbidden by the Bible, when it is not.

I think I'll go read Song of Solomon now.

Wait, did I say "kissing prior to marriage is per se forbidden in Bible because it is listful activity" or did I say "you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage." There's a big difference. I said exactly what I meant. If you cannot separate the lust from the act, then don't do it. And, if kissing is lustful for you then it IS a sin. I repeat:

Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Let us not split hairs and live by the letter of the law. Lust, fornication and adultery are all tied up together and they are all serious issues we have in today's culture.

ETA: Song of Solomon is for MARRIED COUPLES. It equates marriage between humans to marriage between humans and God.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
Wait, did I say "kissing prior to marriage is per se forbidden in Bible because it is listful activity" or did I say "you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage." There's a big difference. I said exactly what I meant. If you cannot separate the lust from the act, then don't do it. And, if kissing is lustful for you then it IS a sin.

Chill, please. In your first post on the subject, you said: "Actually, according to the Holy Bible, you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage, including kissing." In your second post on the subject, you said: "So, if you cannot separate kissing from sexual lust, then it is forbidden." As I said in my post, these seem like two different statements to me. While you very well may have meant them to mean the same thing, I think the first statement can fairly be read to say that kissing before marriage is per se lustful activity, which I don't think can be found anywhere in the Bible. That was my only point (and is why I asked for a citation to the first statement).

And I really don't think I am splitting hairs to suggest that the words fornication and adultery have specific definitions.

ETA: Song of Solomon is for MARRIED COUPLES. It equates marriage between humans to marriage between humans and God

Okay, aside from the fact that the Song of Solomon reference was meant as a light-hearted aside, the interpretation that it is for married couples or that it is about the relationship between God and humanity are certainly reasonable interpretations, but they are not the only widely-accepted interpretations. Jewish and Christian scholars of all stripes -- conservative, liberal, whatever -- agree that the Song is not necessarily about a married couple. No where in the text is any mention of marriage made, and of course when it was written, a man of prestige would not only have had a number of wives but also a lot of concubines -- hundreds in Solomon's case.

FWIW, I'm pretty much with you on the idea that some behavior is only appropriate within marriage, but I don't think anyone could pick that kind of idea up from Song of Solomon. The Song of Solomon is about love and desire, and how they are to be celebrated as part of the good creation. For guidance on the appropriate bounds of such celebration, one must look elsewhere.

Thus endeth my sermon for today.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin

Wait, I shouldn't be able to read and I have to go back to my menstrual hut now! BYE!

Are you saying these practices are encouraged or sanctioned by the Bible?

[RxyChrldr]

Originally posted by Glitter650
I *think* they have the highest drop out rate amongst their women students as well

Could you find a citation of this anywhere for me? I've been searching and searching the web and can't find anything..and it would sort of surprise me if it were true, because there is such a strong emphasis on education (even continuing after marriage if getting married young happens). I'll be getting married next month and will be finishing my undergrad in the next year or so..and I know I get a lot of encouragement from the church to complete my degree (not that it was ever an option for me not to!). So yeah, i'd just be really greatful to find these sort of stats for BYU. Thanks!

[Glitter650]

really it's just something I've heard in passing... was definitely not stating that I believe it to be fact... sorry if it appeared that way...have edited my post to reflect as such...

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by RxyChrldr
I've actually found there is a lot of encouragement for people to date around casually a bunch (rather than getting too serious too young) until you find someone ideal for you.

So, exactly what does the church consider too young for a serious relationship? I always heard about how education was a major part of the LDS doctrine--hence their support of a major research university. On the other hand, I hear about Mormon women marrying before they're 21--which seems too young to me. Is there a magic age at which church elders are encouraging marriage? I know that's how it is with the JWs. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I just want to understand more.

The dropout rate for married women is and has been higher for that of unmarried women--regardless of school type or religion. Priorities change. I was going through my college's alumnae newsletter (back when half of it was women-only), and even in 1950, there were articles urging women to finish their studies and travel or work at least a year before getting married.

[RxyChrldr]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
So, exactly what does the church consider too young for a serious relationship? I always heard about how education was a major part of the LDS doctrine--hence their support of a major research university. On the other hand, I hear about Mormon women marrying before they're 21--which seems too young to me. Is there a magic age at which church elders are encouraging marriage? I know that's how it is with the JWs. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I just want to understand more.

As far as I know these are some church ideals: dating is encouraged to begin not before age 16, group dates are always a better idea that one-on-one, serious dating and marriage encouraged after return from one's mission. A lot is left to individual parents/families to determine, with these things as guidelines. I know my fiance had a serious relationship with a girlfriend his first year at college, before his mission...with his parent's blessing. He and she both changed so much on their mission that they didn't mesh well upon return..and left the relationship as a friendship.

[ZTAMich]

So my LDS friend (the one who invited me to go tour the temple in Manhattan with her earlier this month) invited me to a service at the church.

Now, we've had dinner a few times, once casually with 2 missionaries. After that dinner they presented a devotional where I very openly presented the fact that I'm a born and raised Baptist and very happy attending the Presby. church I've found here in the city.

I didn't end up going to her service on Sunday. I felt like going would be like leading her on. The more and more I hang with her I feel guilty. One because I have no need to go to her church, being very happy with mine and two because I think the more polite I seem the more interested she thinks I am. Does that make sense?

Also, and maybe someone will know how I felt, I feel more so with her that there's a heavy pressure to convert. More so than with any other religion. I've been to a Catholic Mass for Easter Vigil. At that service the family I was with and the priest knew I was Baptist and I never felt pressured. Even conversations with her about teaching I feel, like she's there in her head trying to figure out how to 'make me a mormon' I mean no disrespect, just....well it feels uncomfortable!

Can she and I be friends without religion being involved? We had such an awesome time out at a Broadway show Friday!!

[Measi]

Originally posted by ZTAMich

Also, and maybe someone will know how I felt, I feel more so with her that there's a heavy pressure to convert. More so than with any other religion. I've been to a Catholic Mass for Easter Vigil. At that service the family I was with and the priest knew I was Baptist and I never felt pressured. Even conversations with her about teaching I feel, like she's there in her head trying to figure out how to 'make me a mormon' I mean no disrespect, just....well it feels uncomfortable!

Can she and I be friends without religion being involved? We had such an awesome time out at a Broadway show Friday!!

I've been there as well, in my case in high school. I was heavily pressured by my LDS boyfriend and the local missionaries (who apparently talked to my boyfriend's parents and decided to work on me). I realize that my boyfriend and his family were genuinely interested in showing the beauty of their faith (and I don't hold anything against them)... but it made me extremely uncomfortable... and because I was underage at the time, I really didn't know how to back out of it. I tried to explain that I didn't feel the pull they claimed I would toward the faith after reading the Book of Mormon. It didn't matter. Thankfully it ended when the missionaries called my father to ask if there was a time they could meet with him. My dad stopped it right there. Unfortunately, so did my relationship with my boyfriend.

In many ways, the LDS church members are encouraged to convert others-- because it's taught that their faith is the one with the truth. Many other Christian sects, mostly charismatic or evangical, do this as well. It can get extremely heavy, and is difficult to request that they back off without making it ugly since they genuinely do think they're doing something out of kindness for you by trying to bring you into their church. It can put you into that difficult place of telling them no without sounding completely disrespectful.

I would recommend that if you want to continue a friendship with her, to explain how you're feeling the pressure and (to make it completely unaccusatory) are concerned that you might have been giving off an incorrect vibe that you were interested in converting, when in reality you have found a foundation in your own faith that already fills your heart.

[Measi]

It does look like there are some GLO's at BYU, by the way... they look like they are all professionals or honoraries that are major-specific.

http://sc.byu.edu/index.cfm?ThisSect...&OrgListPage=1